Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

[James0235]

Originally Posted by Just 1 hr a wk

Also -- WHY should folks think there was a choice when the current mass was instituted?

Because there was a choice:

As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.
Pope Benedict XVI

[Just 1 hr a wk]

Originally Posted by James0235

Because there was a choice:

As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.
Pope Benedict XVI

The church is not a democracy.

[brotherhrolf]

No such choice existed when I was a teenager in high school and an altar boy during the little over two years it took us to transition from the TLM to the NO.

[pnewton]

What I like about the Holy Father's instructions are that they ignore the percentages, which are entirely irrelevant. One percent may or may not be accurate, but the availability of a Mass needs to be based on the demand in a specific area. My parish has not shown any demand or need for the TLM, but I would be foolish to think it was typical or something to be modeled. Many areas may have a group signicifant enough in size to justify a TLM. Priests must be open. Heaven knows we have diocese that are open to other special needs, like handicaps and language barriers. If the demand is there, it should be met.

On the other hand, where the numbers are non-existent or very small, practical matters must also be considered. My priest, for example, already says five Masses every weekend, plus weddings, funerals and quincenaras. You can only add so much.

[James0235]

Originally Posted by Just 1 hr a wk

The church is not a democracy.

Yep. It's a monarchy. With Christ as the King. And he has invested his Vicar with authority to bind and loose.

And that Vicar says that the TLM was never abrogated. And he says that all priests have the authority to offer it. And all of the faithful have the right to request it.

As much as that fact seems to eat at you and as much as you seem to dislike his decisions the fact remains that they are his decisions to make.

Get over it.

James

[Just 1 hr a wk]

Originally Posted by James0235

Yep. It's a monarchy. With Christ as the King. And he has invested his Vicar with authority to bind and loose.

And that Vicar says that the TLM was never abrogated. And he says that all priests have the authority to offer it. And all of the faithful have the right to request it.

As much as that fact seems to eat at you and as much as you seem to dislike his decisions the fact remains that they are his decisions to make.

Get over it.

James

Saying it has never been abrogated is not the same as making it all an open choice - especially NOT one for the laity.

[James0235]

Originally Posted by brotherhrolf

No such choice existed when I was a teenager in high school and an altar boy during the little over two years it took us to transition from the TLM to the NO.

The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM "was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted."


James

[BenFischer]

Originally Posted by jflare29

I'm confused. I've watched Mass on EWTN many times. Their daily Mass is still the Novus Ordo, though with many Latin responses, like mine. Am I missing something?

John

The Novus Ordo can be celebrated in Latin, just like it can be celebrated in any other language. There's a parish in my diocese that has a Latin NO mass every Sunday. I guess the EWTN would be a hybrid between all English and all Latin.

[JW10631]

It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Why they feel threatened about it, I can't say.

Of course, here in the USA, we speak English, and any other language is to be SCORNED. After all, Latin is dead, and there's always someone to drag up the old quote about how Latin killed off the Roman Empire, and now it's killing me.

Well, break out the Pampers and the baby wipes. Latin can be used for medicine, law and science, but not worship?

I like the T-shirt - "Don't worry. Satan hates Latin, too!"

Are there really that many people who love holding hands during the Our Father, who love handing out Communion, and singing Marty Haugen's Greatest Hymns?

Maybe they are bothered with the idea of wearing somehting other than blue jeans, a t-shirt and Nikes to Mass.

The Latin Mass and Latin in its entirety was ditched right before I started Catholic School. We got to sing wonderful songs like "God Mixes with Man" and the unforgettable Terry Jacks' top-40 hit "Seasons in the Sun" during Mass, along with our felt banners. Such wonderful catechesis my parents paid for!

And look at the fruits! Declining vocations, ugly church buildings that look like college lecture halls inside, Marty Haugen, Bob Dufford, O Flowing River, yeah, it was so important to get rid of the Mass that was celebrated when the Spanish, Portugese and French evangelized 2/3 of the Western Hemisphere. It was so much better to have every Tom, Richard and Harriet hand out Communion than it was when we used an altar rail at Mass - such as when King Jan Sobieski and his Polish Hussars routed the Muslim Turks on September 11, 1683 - or when Queen Isabella attended Holy Mass in Granada on January 2, 1492 - the day Spain completed its 791-year Reconquest.

What an awful thing it is that some of us actually prefer the Mass as it was for centuries - celebrated among so many different cultures, in so many different countries.

If the Latin Mass threatens YOU - maybe it should.

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by JW10631

It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal

I do not know why it would threaten anyone. It's not like one can't find a Mass in English. This is unlikely to change.

[universalindult]

Originally Posted by JW10631

It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Why they feel threatened about it, I can't say.

They don't like it, and they fear it will replace their preferred vernacular mass. So its not enough to just be magnanimous towards those who prefer the TLM. They feel that, out of a sense of self-preservation and self-interest, they need to oppose and deride the TLM.

As to whether "few Catholics prefer the TLM," I suspect that honest polling of those who grew up with the TLM will consistently find that 5 to 15% desire a return to it.

I suspect that a polling of weekly mass attending Catholics will find that 2 to 5% of the general Catholic population desires access to the TLM.

I suspect that these numbers will grow with time, not shrink. Practicing Catholics try to be obedient and do not usually resist their pastors and bishops. Their pastors and bishops have told them for 40 years that they were being “bad” or “disobedient” Catholics if they openly expressed a desire for a return of the TLM.

Now that they can no longer be coerced into believing they are being “bad” or “disobedient” Catholics if they openly express a desire for the TLM, they will start expressing that desire. But it will take a little while longer yet before the stigma of that desire (rightfully) fades, so the demand for the TLM will build slowly.

The Cardinals, bishops, and priests held that stigma over the heads of Catholics for 40 years, and it has only been lifted for 3 months. You cannot expect the laity to know they have this right when Cardinals, bishops, and priests openly continue to try to undermine Summorum Pontificum, and you cannot accept at face value the claims, by the same Cardinals, bishops, and priests, that there is no demand for the TLM and none to be forthcoming.

By the way, if only 2 to 5% of American Catholics desire the TLM at present, that is still between 1 and 3 million of the most committed Catholics in the Church.

Those today who are self-described as "conservative Catholics" will almost all be TLM attending Catholics in 10 to 20 years. That is the natural trajectory of those honestly seeking truth and holiness.

[pnewton]

I think I would like to challenge the basic premise here. Not the future predictions, which I find hard to swallow, but the basic idea that anyone is afraid of the TLM. So I ask in this large forum of Catholics, is one, even one person afraid of the TLM?

[Seamus L]

I'm not a 100 pct against mass in the vernacular, and I've even seen it done reverently in a few churches, but I also someday hope to see mass in the vernacular become as rare as Latin currently is.

Of course the vast majority of people who attend mass now prefer the vernacular, but then again they also prefer not going to confession, not saying the rosary, not fasting etc.

[brotherhrolf]

Originally Posted by James0235

The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM "was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted."


James

And I would respectfully reply to the HF that the transition from the TLM to the NO was a "fait accompli". If it weren't, why didn't Paul VI step in?

[ac claire]

Originally Posted by James0235

The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM "was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted."James

I don't understand:
The priests, etc. who told the laity that the TLM was illlegal back then...Did they truly believe that was true or were they purposefully misleading?

And is this quote from B16 the first time that anyone's pointed out that the old mass was never outlawed?

Thanks!