Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Jan 2, '08, 5:08 pm
James0235's Avatar
James0235 James0235 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Posts: 1,019
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via AIM to James0235
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just 1 hr a wk View Post

Also -- WHY should folks think there was a choice when the current mass was instituted?
Because there was a choice:

As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.
Pope Benedict XVI



__________________
Scripture in the Mass



Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Jan 2, '08, 5:15 pm
Just 1 hr a wk Just 1 hr a wk is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2007
Posts: 348
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James0235 View Post
Because there was a choice:

As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.
Pope Benedict XVI




The church is not a democracy.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Jan 2, '08, 5:18 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
Forum Elder
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: November 6, 2004
Posts: 17,357
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

No such choice existed when I was a teenager in high school and an altar boy during the little over two years it took us to transition from the TLM to the NO.
__________________
Homo proponit sed Deus disponit.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Jan 2, '08, 5:19 pm
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 26,968
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

What I like about the Holy Father's instructions are that they ignore the percentages, which are entirely irrelevant. One percent may or may not be accurate, but the availability of a Mass needs to be based on the demand in a specific area. My parish has not shown any demand or need for the TLM, but I would be foolish to think it was typical or something to be modeled. Many areas may have a group signicifant enough in size to justify a TLM. Priests must be open. Heaven knows we have diocese that are open to other special needs, like handicaps and language barriers. If the demand is there, it should be met.

On the other hand, where the numbers are non-existent or very small, practical matters must also be considered. My priest, for example, already says five Masses every weekend, plus weddings, funerals and quincenaras. You can only add so much.
__________________
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Jan 2, '08, 5:20 pm
James0235's Avatar
James0235 James0235 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Posts: 1,019
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via AIM to James0235
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just 1 hr a wk View Post
The church is not a democracy.
Yep. It's a monarchy. With Christ as the King. And he has invested his Vicar with authority to bind and loose.

And that Vicar says that the TLM was never abrogated. And he says that all priests have the authority to offer it. And all of the faithful have the right to request it.

As much as that fact seems to eat at you and as much as you seem to dislike his decisions the fact remains that they are his decisions to make.

Get over it.

James
__________________
Scripture in the Mass



Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old Jan 2, '08, 5:21 pm
Just 1 hr a wk Just 1 hr a wk is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2007
Posts: 348
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James0235 View Post
Yep. It's a monarchy. With Christ as the King. And he has invested his Vicar with authority to bind and loose.

And that Vicar says that the TLM was never abrogated. And he says that all priests have the authority to offer it. And all of the faithful have the right to request it.

As much as that fact seems to eat at you and as much as you seem to dislike his decisions the fact remains that they are his decisions to make.

Get over it.

James




Saying it has never been abrogated is not the same as making it all an open choice - especially NOT one for the laity.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old Jan 2, '08, 5:23 pm
James0235's Avatar
James0235 James0235 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Posts: 1,019
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via AIM to James0235
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by brotherhrolf View Post
No such choice existed when I was a teenager in high school and an altar boy during the little over two years it took us to transition from the TLM to the NO.
The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM "was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted."


James
__________________
Scripture in the Mass



Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old Jan 2, '08, 5:54 pm
BenFischer BenFischer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 17, 2007
Posts: 122
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: On EWTN?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jflare29 View Post
I'm confused. I've watched Mass on EWTN many times. Their daily Mass is still the Novus Ordo, though with many Latin responses, like mine. Am I missing something?

John
The Novus Ordo can be celebrated in Latin, just like it can be celebrated in any other language. There's a parish in my diocese that has a Latin NO mass every Sunday. I guess the EWTN would be a hybrid between all English and all Latin.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old Jan 2, '08, 6:29 pm
JW10631 JW10631 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 16, 2004
Posts: 963
Religion: Latin Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Why they feel threatened about it, I can't say.

Of course, here in the USA, we speak English, and any other language is to be SCORNED. After all, Latin is dead, and there's always someone to drag up the old quote about how Latin killed off the Roman Empire, and now it's killing me.

Well, break out the Pampers and the baby wipes. Latin can be used for medicine, law and science, but not worship?

I like the T-shirt - "Don't worry. Satan hates Latin, too!"

Are there really that many people who love holding hands during the Our Father, who love handing out Communion, and singing Marty Haugen's Greatest Hymns?

Maybe they are bothered with the idea of wearing somehting other than blue jeans, a t-shirt and Nikes to Mass.

The Latin Mass and Latin in its entirety was ditched right before I started Catholic School. We got to sing wonderful songs like "God Mixes with Man" and the unforgettable Terry Jacks' top-40 hit "Seasons in the Sun" during Mass, along with our felt banners. Such wonderful catechesis my parents paid for!

And look at the fruits! Declining vocations, ugly church buildings that look like college lecture halls inside, Marty Haugen, Bob Dufford, O Flowing River, yeah, it was so important to get rid of the Mass that was celebrated when the Spanish, Portugese and French evangelized 2/3 of the Western Hemisphere. It was so much better to have every Tom, Richard and Harriet hand out Communion than it was when we used an altar rail at Mass - such as when King Jan Sobieski and his Polish Hussars routed the Muslim Turks on September 11, 1683 - or when Queen Isabella attended Holy Mass in Granada on January 2, 1492 - the day Spain completed its 791-year Reconquest.

What an awful thing it is that some of us actually prefer the Mass as it was for centuries - celebrated among so many different cultures, in so many different countries.

If the Latin Mass threatens YOU - maybe it should.

Last edited by JW10631; Jan 2, '08 at 6:30 pm. Reason: I did not realize that this name would be a swear word.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old Jan 2, '08, 6:54 pm
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 26,968
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW10631 View Post
It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal
I do not know why it would threaten anyone. It's not like one can't find a Mass in English. This is unlikely to change.
__________________
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old Jan 2, '08, 7:01 pm
universalindult universalindult is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2007
Posts: 230
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW10631 View Post
It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Why they feel threatened about it, I can't say.
They don't like it, and they fear it will replace their preferred vernacular mass. So its not enough to just be magnanimous towards those who prefer the TLM. They feel that, out of a sense of self-preservation and self-interest, they need to oppose and deride the TLM.

As to whether "few Catholics prefer the TLM," I suspect that honest polling of those who grew up with the TLM will consistently find that 5 to 15% desire a return to it.

I suspect that a polling of weekly mass attending Catholics will find that 2 to 5% of the general Catholic population desires access to the TLM.

I suspect that these numbers will grow with time, not shrink. Practicing Catholics try to be obedient and do not usually resist their pastors and bishops. Their pastors and bishops have told them for 40 years that they were being “bad” or “disobedient” Catholics if they openly expressed a desire for a return of the TLM.

Now that they can no longer be coerced into believing they are being “bad” or “disobedient” Catholics if they openly express a desire for the TLM, they will start expressing that desire. But it will take a little while longer yet before the stigma of that desire (rightfully) fades, so the demand for the TLM will build slowly.

The Cardinals, bishops, and priests held that stigma over the heads of Catholics for 40 years, and it has only been lifted for 3 months. You cannot expect the laity to know they have this right when Cardinals, bishops, and priests openly continue to try to undermine Summorum Pontificum, and you cannot accept at face value the claims, by the same Cardinals, bishops, and priests, that there is no demand for the TLM and none to be forthcoming.

By the way, if only 2 to 5% of American Catholics desire the TLM at present, that is still between 1 and 3 million of the most committed Catholics in the Church.

Those today who are self-described as "conservative Catholics" will almost all be TLM attending Catholics in 10 to 20 years. That is the natural trajectory of those honestly seeking truth and holiness.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old Jan 2, '08, 7:37 pm
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 26,968
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

I think I would like to challenge the basic premise here. Not the future predictions, which I find hard to swallow, but the basic idea that anyone is afraid of the TLM. So I ask in this large forum of Catholics, is one, even one person afraid of the TLM?
__________________
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old Jan 2, '08, 7:56 pm
Seamus L Seamus L is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2007
Posts: 4,105
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

I'm not a 100 pct against mass in the vernacular, and I've even seen it done reverently in a few churches, but I also someday hope to see mass in the vernacular become as rare as Latin currently is.

Of course the vast majority of people who attend mass now prefer the vernacular, but then again they also prefer not going to confession, not saying the rosary, not fasting etc.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old Jan 2, '08, 8:26 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
Forum Elder
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: November 6, 2004
Posts: 17,357
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James0235 View Post
The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM "was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted."


James
And I would respectfully reply to the HF that the transition from the TLM to the NO was a "fait accompli". If it weren't, why didn't Paul VI step in?
__________________
Homo proponit sed Deus disponit.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old Jan 2, '08, 8:36 pm
ac claire's Avatar
ac claire ac claire is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2007
Posts: 3,283
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

Quote:
Originally Posted by James0235 View Post
The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM "was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted."James
I don't understand:
The priests, etc. who told the laity that the TLM was illlegal back then...Did they truly believe that was true or were they purposefully misleading?

And is this quote from B16 the first time that anyone's pointed out that the old mass was never outlawed?

Thanks!
__________________

-ac

___________________________________

Last edited by ac claire; Jan 2, '08 at 8:42 pm. Reason: html correction
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why aren't Catholics more concerned about the existence of other Religions? slowly Apologetics 237 Jun 23, '12 9:25 pm
“Shoot us in public” last wish of three death row Catholics bones_IV Catholic News 19 Mar 26, '08 11:44 am
Bishops: Missouri Catholics must oppose stem cell measure Evangel Social Justice 5 Nov 2, '06 3:49 pm
Hugo Chavez in Embarassing to Catholics mo3 Catholic News 19 Sep 28, '06 11:49 am



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8570Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: SueZee
5243CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: James_OPL
4436Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3903Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3878SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3472Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
3322Poems and Reflections
Last by: Purgatory Pete
3237Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3172For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: SueZee



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:38 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.