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  #16  
Old Nov 2, '04, 4:11 pm
Exporter Exporter is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

There at least ten English language Bibles preceding the King James Bible. They are listed.
1. Wycliff Bible ...............1384
2. William Tyndale Bible...1540
3.Coverdales Bible............1535
4.Matthew's Bible.............1537
5. Taverner's Bible.............1539
6. The Great Bible.............1539
7. The Geneva Bible...........1557
8. The Bishop's Bible..........1568
9. The Douay-Rheims Bible..1582 &1609
10. King James Version.......1611

<http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html>
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  #17  
Old Nov 2, '04, 4:38 pm
tkdnick tkdnick is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholikos
Recommendation: Read the History of the Bible thread. I'll bump it up for you.

Short answer:
Martin Luther removed ELEVEN books from the Bible, plus parts of Esther and Daniel, in his German translation (1522 - 34) -- 7 from the OT (Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], 1 and 2 Maccabees), and 4 from the NT (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation). His followers later restored the NT books, but the OT writings are still missing from the Protestant Bible.

Luther's tactic was to put the writings in an appendix at the back of his Bible, separated from those he regarded as "scripture," and he left the pages unnumbered so no one could make the mistake of thinking they were accepted as part of the Bible. He also wrote prefaces for them explaining his reasons for not considering them scripture. The original King James used the same technique -- the OT books were separated at the back as an appendix. Later editions left the books out altogether.

Why did Luther do this? Because these books were in opposition to his new doctrines, especially Maccabees and James. The complete explanation is much longer than this.

JMJ Jay
Didn't know some of this stuff. I knew Luther had taken 7, and heard that he wanted to take other out, but that he was convinced to leave them in. I know he called the book of James an "epistle of straw".
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  #18  
Old Nov 3, '04, 8:54 am
Axion Axion is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratusRose
The removal of the seven books happened at the Council of Trent in the 1500s.
No The Council of Trent was a Catholic Council that confirmed the seven books as being a full part of the Old testament canon. Some Protestants allege that the Council of Trent inserted the seven books into the Bible, but this is untrue. The full 73 book bible (as opposed to the protestant 66 book version) was laid down by the Councils of Rome and Carthage in 382 and 397 AD.


Quote:
The King James Bible is significant because it was the first bible written in the English language, the Catholic Bible that followed was the Douey-Rheims version.
The King James Bible was quite a latecomer in 1611. There were even attempts translate the bible into Anglo Saxon as early as the 9th century. As has been said the King james bible originally contained all the books. Only as late as the 1820s did most protestants decide to eliminate the seven books entirely. You can still get KJVs with the seven books. And the books are still used in the Anglican lectionary.
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  #19  
Old Nov 3, '04, 9:40 am
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanna
Wow...I had no idea that Luther was the one who removed the books. But he started the Reformation, right? Makes sense now. Thank you so much for your help! I'm going to bring it up to my Baptist co-worker this afternoon and start the conversation again!
I would highly recommend to you (and your friend) the classic book on this subject "Where We Got The Bible" by Henry Graham. It is available for purchase on this Catholic Answers website at http://shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/S...791+1107535920

or online at http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/d..._contents.html
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  #20  
Old Nov 3, '04, 9:45 am
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exporter
There at least ten English language Bibles preceding the King James Bible. They are listed.
1. Wycliff Bible ...............1384
2. William Tyndale Bible...1540
3.Coverdales Bible............1535
4.Matthew's Bible.............1537
5. Taverner's Bible.............1539
6. The Great Bible.............1539
7. The Geneva Bible...........1557
8. The Bishop's Bible..........1568
9. The Douay-Rheims Bible..1582 &1609
10. King James Version.......1611

<http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html>
The KJV was actually a revision of the "Bishop's Bible."
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  #21  
Old Nov 3, '04, 9:51 am
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Exporter, what's the source of your quotes? Great stuff!
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  #22  
Old Nov 3, '04, 9:52 am
StratusRose StratusRose is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axion
No The Council of Trent was a Catholic Council that confirmed the seven books as being a full part of the Old testament canon. Some Protestants allege that the Council of Trent inserted the seven books into the Bible, but this is untrue. The full 73 book bible (as opposed to the protestant 66 book version) was laid down by the Councils of Rome and Carthage in 382 and 397 AD.[/font]


[font=Verdana]
The King James Bible was quite a latecomer in 1611. There were even attempts translate the bible into Anglo Saxon as early as the 9th century. As has been said the King james bible originally contained all the books. Only as late as the 1820s did most protestants decide to eliminate the seven books entirely. You can still get KJVs with the seven books. And the books are still used in the Anglican lectionary.
The facts I posted came straight from an article from a Catholic magazine. Maybe I should check their sources.
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  #23  
Old Nov 3, '04, 10:18 am
mtr01 mtr01 is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axion
Only as late as the 1820s did most protestants decide to eliminate the seven books entirely. You can still get KJVs with the seven books. And the books are still used in the Anglican lectionary.
True, but they are listed as an "appendix" as "The Apocrypha". This as I recall, is same procedure used by Luther, since he didn't consider them as part of inspired Scripture.
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  #24  
Old Nov 3, '04, 10:21 am
mtr01 mtr01 is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratusRose
The facts I posted came straight from an article from a Catholic magazine. Maybe I should check their sources.
Or perhaps you misread?
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  #25  
Old Nov 3, '04, 10:29 am
StubbleSpark StubbleSpark is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Sorry to add to the confusion just when things are starting to look tidy, folks, but I was under the impression that Luther removed James and Revelations ONLY. I heard on EWTN from Fr. Mitch Pacwa that the deutocanonical books were later removed by the PRINTERS of the Bible and their removal has no basis in theological or scriptural discourse at all.

But I see above that the reformers spoke against the 7 "extra" Catholic books?

Just want to check...
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  #26  
Old Nov 3, '04, 12:28 pm
Psalm45:9 Psalm45:9 is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Even the extremely anti-catholic Geneva Bible contained the Apocraphya/Deuterocanonicals. The enitre reason why King James comissioned a new Bible Translation is because of the commentaries it contained. Not only were they anti-catholic, but they were anti-monarchy. The Puritians published this Bible and it is the translation that the Pilgrims brought to America on the May Flower. The King James Bible did not catch on when it was published in 1611, people still prefered the Geneva Bible. It did not catch on until much later, since then, the Geveva Bible has nearly been forgotten today.
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  #27  
Old Nov 3, '04, 3:17 pm
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Quote:
Originally Posted by StubbleSpark
Sorry to add to the confusion just when things are starting to look tidy, folks, but I was under the impression that Luther removed James and Revelations ONLY. I heard on EWTN from Fr. Mitch Pacwa that the deutocanonical books were later removed by the PRINTERS of the Bible and their removal has no basis in theological or scriptural discourse at all.

But I see above that the reformers spoke against the 7 "extra" Catholic books?

Just want to check...
Fact is, Luther rejected eleven books of the Bible. I'll try to find his prefaces for the NT books, written for his German Bible, and will post them. He removed Hebrews, James, Jude, Revelation, and 7 OT books plus parts of Esther and Daniel and separated them from "the scriptures" in his German translation, placing them at the back -- with the pages unnumbered -- as an appendix.

Following the tactic of Luther, these OT books were placed in an appendix in the original KJV and were later dropped. Lutherans had by then restored the NT books to their rightful place, but the OT books were not considered "scripture" to Luther's followers.

JMJ Jay

JMJ Jay
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  #28  
Old Nov 3, '04, 3:22 pm
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Here's Luther's prefaces for the NT books he rejected from a Lutheran website (with a somewhat sanitized translation).

http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html
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  #29  
Old Nov 3, '04, 3:59 pm
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Here's another Lutheran website with the prefaces to Hebrews, James and Jude, Revelation as written by Luther to explain why he did not consider them to be scripture. This one includes Luther's preface to the NT.

http://www.wls.wels.net/students/cou...%20394-399.doc


JMJ Jay
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  #30  
Old Nov 3, '04, 8:37 pm
StubbleSpark StubbleSpark is offline
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Default Re: Why did King James remove those books??

Veeeeery interesting!



Thanks!
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