If it wasn't true - Page 11

**jmcrae** · #**151** Jan 25, '08, 1:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namesake

I don't believe that. The church isn't always right.

Well, somebody has to be - Jesus promised it. To whom did He make that promise, if not to St. Peter, first Pope of the Catholic Church?

Was there a Protestant standing next to St. Peter, whom Jesus was actually addressing, with St. Peter just listening in? And if so, which one?

**LilyM** · #**152** Jan 25, '08, 1:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namesake

You all have a corner on that market, telling others what they must believe.

It's Jesus who does that through the Church ... and it's called teaching, by the way ... just so you know who to address the complaint letters to

joeybaggz · #**153** Jan 25, '08, 2:41 pm

Namesake:
You said
"Catholics think they already have found truth."

Actually, The Truth found us. And that Truth permeates our Church and our lives. He just does it on His time.

I teach in the RC program. Recently, I had a man who came through that program about four years ago come up to me after mass about a month ago and say, "I finally get it". When I asked what he meant he said that he finally understood what I said in a class about the Eucharist and the real presence of Christ. We laughed about it, and being a cradle Catholic, I told him it took me about forty years.

At least in my little corner of the world, we don't demand that anyone wishing to investigate and possibly come into the church, categorically believe everything all at once. We just ask that one "be open to the possibility". It's another way of saying that we recognize each individual's unique understanding of truth, and that God works His will on His time.
I offer that if you're looking for a Saul of Tarsus/Road to Damascus moment, you'll probably be disappointed.

You also said that the Church isn't always right. If you're talking practice, you'll find a lot of people who agree with you, right up to the top guy in Rome. If you are talking dogma, teaching authority, and core beliefs, understanding CC teaching takes some time. (and some patience with the people who teach it

) Good luck in finding what you seek.

Shalom

2ndGen · #**154** Jan 25, '08, 2:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namesake

I don't believe that. The church isn't always right. Golly, don't you ever get tired of letting an organization of people determine what you must believe? That isn't much of a life in my opinion.

Can you provide a doctrine that is wrong?

2ndGen · #**155** Jan 25, '08, 2:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

Well, somebody has to be - Jesus promised it. To whom did He make that promise, if not to St. Peter, first Pope of the Catholic Church?

Was there a Protestant standing next to St. Peter, whom Jesus was actually addressing, with St. Peter just listening in? And if so, which one?

Judas protested Christ.

**jmcrae** · #**156** Jan 25, '08, 2:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndGen

Judas protested Christ.

So, Jesus was giving the keys of the Kingdom to Judas? (Where is Judas' church, today?)

2ndGen · #**157** Jan 25, '08, 2:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

So, Jesus was giving the keys of the Kingdom to Judas? (Where is Judas' church, today?)

No, Judas was the "protestant" among the group:

Dictionary.com
Prot·es·tant
4. (lowercase) a person who protests.

My answer to:

Quote:

Was there a Protestant standing next to St. Peter, whom Jesus was actually addressing, with St. Peter just listening in? And if so, which one?

But I have actual video tape proof that Peter was the only one to whom Jesus gave The Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven to!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nVDotEw9vZE

**jmcrae** · #**158** Jan 25, '08, 2:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndGen

No, Judas was the "protestant" among the group:

Dictionary.com
Prot·es·tant
4. (lowercase) a person who protests.

No doubt. Did he found a church? Where is it today? If it exists, should Christians prefer to belong to Judas' Church, or St. Peter's?

This is my question.

2ndGen · #**159** Jan 25, '08, 3:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

No doubt. Did he found a church? Where is it today? If it exists, should Christians prefer to belong to Judas' Church, or St. Peter's?

This is my question.

Universal Christians should only be in The Petrine Church!

Now, all those "other" churches started by men?

We can't tell them what to do. Only their leaders can, but all Universal Christians MUST go to The Church that Jesus Christ founded upon Simon Bar Jonah!

2ndGen · #**160** Jan 25, '08, 3:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

No doubt. Did he found a church? Where is it today? If it exists, should Christians prefer to belong to Judas' Church, or St. Peter's?

This is my question.

Plus, the only thing that Judas found was "the end of a rope".

YADA · #**161** Jan 25, '08, 3:33 pm

What if ..... "Those matters pertaining to Mary - as taught by the Church - suddenly were determined not to be [by the Church]" Would that change how a Christian believes in Jesus?

One would have to say "Yes" .... after all who is Jesus?

No one comes to a faith in Jesus outside the Church .... even if you loosely define what the "Church" is .....

It is the 'writings' [NT] from a body of believers that introduce us to Jesus .... we have the hebrew writings [OT] and the New Testament .... this faith [and all the teachings that come from this faith community] through the ages is how the 21st person lerns of Jesus .... now a few may come to 'know' Jesus purely and independently by picking up a "Bible" and reading it .... they are still dependent upon the faith community who brought the scriptures into being and handed it down ....

Most will recieve the written word after the Christian "Witness" .....

So if the beliefs held true become "Un - Truths" then the foundation of our belief in Jesus has to feel the result ....

Now, historically, the beliefs about Mary were solidified as the early Church defined the God-Man Jesus ...

For example: Mary, the Mother of God [Theotokos] was the direct result the church's wrestling with those who believed that Jesus was only and solely a Man and NOT God ... the Church authoritatively defined Jesus as being fully human and fully divine .... Mary and her role in Salvation history was part of this discussion and out of that discussion Mary was rightfully understood and considered to be [and hold] the title Mother of God ....

That said - if now she is not the Mother of God ... then perhaps Jesus does not have two natures and is not God ....

Therefore, if the Church begins to change its teachings on Mary then all manner of belief in Jesus can change, what is considered scriptural can change and all authority is out the window ....

And as a point of fact ... this is what protestantism has wrought .... all of the initial reformers believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary ..... but they began a deconstruction of the church and christian belief......

now christianity does not:

Mary was not always a virgin or not, immaculately concieved or not .... the Mother of other children or not .... in fact ... there are some who now say Mary was just a young girl [not a virgin] and some ministers have put forth that Jesus was the result of a rape by a roman soldier upon Mary NOT the Holy Spirit!

The resurrection was the result of mass hysteria ... or real ....

Some do not hold the necessity of baptism ..... what constitutes the scriptures .... Communion .... real, symbolic or something in between .... Marriage ..... a sacrament or not ....

Sins forgiven [past, present and future] no chance at losing salvation or not and various beliefs in between ....

Apostolic succession of presbytors or any self declared pastor ...

Etc, etc ..... There is no end .....

Uncle Norbert · #**162** Jan 25, '08, 3:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndGen

Plus, the only thing that Judas found was "the end of a rope".

Seems like the phrase "Better for him had he never been born" comes to mind.........certainly not one to build a Church on.

2ndGen · #**163** Jan 25, '08, 3:48 pm

church father's teachings on Mary:

1.

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.

======================================== =====

2.

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10

======================================== =====

3.

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

2ndGen · #**164** Jan 25, '08, 3:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndGen

church father's teachings on Mary:

1.

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.

======================================== =====

2.

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10

======================================== =====

3.

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

Oh, I'm sorry...that was a little "vague" of me.

I meant The Protestant church fathers!

1. Martin Luther
2. John Calvin
3. Ulrich Zwingli

http://www.mariology.com/sections/reformers.html

2ndGen · #**165** Jan 25, '08, 3:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Norbert

Seems like the phrase "Better for him had he never been born" comes to mind.........certainly not one to build a Church on.

You said it Unc!