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  #1  
Old Nov 5, '04, 8:36 am
John of Woking's Avatar
John of Woking John of Woking is offline
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Default Watching People tortured in Hell?

Did St.Thomas really write this
A widespread belief in the Church was that the small minority of people who were accepted into heaven would enjoy being allowed to watch the vast majority of people as they were tortured in Hell. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote: "In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned." Other church leaders of the era made similar statements. The concept is preserved in many pieces of religious artwork.

My question is would you be watching people in hell ?
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  #2  
Old Nov 5, '04, 9:12 am
larryo larryo is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John of Woking
Did St.Thomas really write this
A widespread belief in the Church was that the small minority of people who were accepted into heaven would enjoy being allowed to watch the vast majority of people as they were tortured in Hell. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote: "In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned." Other church leaders of the era made similar statements. The concept is preserved in many pieces of religious artwork.

My question is would you be watching people in hell ?
I think I'd just be grateful to be in heaven and wouldn't give a damn--forgive the pun--about hell. There, but for the grace of God, go I.
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  #3  
Old Nov 5, '04, 9:20 am
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John of Woking John of Woking is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryo
I think I'd just be grateful to be in heaven and wouldn't give a damn--forgive the pun--about hell. There, but for the grace of God, go I.
Me too. Hi down there...you voted Kerry?!
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  #4  
Old Nov 5, '04, 9:55 am
cestusdei cestusdei is offline
 
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

I have enjoyed watching the democrats suffering the pains of the damned the last few days...
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  #5  
Old Nov 5, '04, 10:08 am
Dr. Colossus Dr. Colossus is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John of Woking
My question is would you be watching people in hell ?
St. Thomas argued that the joy of the elect could be increased by seeing the suffering of the damned. The reason is because, to see those who rejected God facing eternal punishment, our appreciation for His divine justice would be increased. St. John Bosco wrote from the opposite perspective. In his visions, he saw the damned being able to see the joy of those in Heaven, which added to their suffering.

I will admit that there are times when I think it might be enjoyable to see a couple people roasting. It's a matter of knowing that justice has been done.
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  #6  
Old Nov 5, '04, 10:14 am
miguel miguel is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John of Woking
Did St.Thomas really write this
A widespread belief in the Church was that the small minority of people who were accepted into heaven would enjoy being allowed to watch the vast majority of people as they were tortured in Hell. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote: "In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned." Other church leaders of the era made similar statements. The concept is preserved in many pieces of religious artwork.

My question is would you be watching people in hell ?
You pick some good topics Sir John.
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  #7  
Old Nov 5, '04, 10:31 am
Pinklady Pinklady is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

have enjoyed watching the democrats suffering the pains of the damned the last few days...[/quote]

That's funny; the democrats are feeling the same way about how the Republicans are going to be damned too.

Now...don't you think those are hateful, unchristian, uncharitable sentiments that have no place on a CATHOLIC message board?
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  #8  
Old Nov 5, '04, 10:36 am
Scott Waddell's Avatar
Scott Waddell Scott Waddell is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinklady
have enjoyed watching the democrats suffering the pains of the damned the last few days...

That's funny; the democrats are feeling the same way about how the Republicans are going to be damned too.

Now...don't you think those are hateful, unchristian, uncharitable sentiments that have no place on a CATHOLIC message board?

As a humorous jest, I see nothing wrong with it.


Scott
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  #9  
Old Nov 5, '04, 10:44 am
Pinklady Pinklady is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Is that a joke you'd make to Jesus?
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  #10  
Old Nov 5, '04, 10:46 am
patricius patricius is offline
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Unhappy Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

I think the principle is "don't kick a man when he's down."

Additionally, if "justice" were really to be done we would all be in Hell because Jesus would never have performed his awful, wonderful, entirely "unjust" but completely loving sacrifice of Himself for us.

Actually, the question of how there can be joy in Heaven when we know that those who are equally beloved by God are experiencing eternal pain is one of the biggest "troublemakers" for my faith. I understand how the pain of the damned glorifies God, but I can't see how we're supposed to not be sad about it. Some people say "we'll just be consumed by God's presence and not worry about the damned," but that just makes it seem like God is sweeping the damned under the rug.

I honestly don't know what to make of the Aquinas quote and I'll be watching this thread with interest.
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  #11  
Old Nov 5, '04, 10:47 am
GaryScott GaryScott is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinklady
Is that a joke you'd make to Jesus?
What kind of joke would you make to Jesus?

HWJJ -- How Would Jesus Jest?
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  #12  
Old Nov 5, '04, 10:51 am
Stylteralmaldo Stylteralmaldo is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

I wonder if people that stray off-topic are going to hell.

Seriously though, this is an interesting topic. I would imagine that having the ability to see those who are suffering in hell would enhance the appreciation of heaven.

I guess the closest I can come to is the appreciation I have for having been born in this country where we have the immense freedoms we have that are lacking in other parts of the world.
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  #13  
Old Nov 5, '04, 1:43 pm
+veritas+ +veritas+ is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

I am intrigued by this, and will try to track down further info on it from St. Thomas' writings (and my Aquinas professor) later.

However, at first glance, I am going to guess that what Aquinas is getting at is 1) It is logically impossible that those who are in heaven will be in any way unhappy -- in fact, they will have the ultimate happiness. 2) At the same time, he proposes that in order for man to reach the perfection of his nature, all that is knowable to his nature will be known in heaven -- including the fate of all other persons (heave/hell). Therefore, those who are in heaven will known about hell, and will not only be happy but be ultimately happy.

If those in heaven did not know about hell, they would be "wanting" knowledge, which cannot be because then they would not be perfectually fulfilled in heaven.

Aquinas is not using the word happy as in "gleeful", he is using happy to mean fulfillment, the ultimate realization of our being and purpose. "Happy" is not an emotion to Aquinas!

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  #14  
Old Nov 5, '04, 2:57 pm
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patricius
Actually, the question of how there can be joy in Heaven when we know that those who are equally beloved by God are experiencing eternal pain is one of the biggest "troublemakers" for my faith.
There are many truths that we will not fully understand this side of the grave.

Consider the words of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31:
"There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, 1who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' And he said, `Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"


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  #15  
Old Nov 5, '04, 4:03 pm
aimekuelmc aimekuelmc is offline
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Default Re: Watching People tortured in Hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinklady
have enjoyed watching the democrats suffering the pains of the damned the last few days...

That's funny; the democrats are feeling the same way about how the Republicans are going to be damned too.

Now...don't you think those are hateful, unchristian, uncharitable sentiments that have no place on a CATHOLIC message board?
Two different statements.

The first that the Democrats are suffering the pains (similar to what the damned suffer)
The second that the Republicans ARE damned.

The second is hateful, unchristian, and uncharitable.

I know many who suffer (and have suffered) pains that could be considered similar to the damned. I don't think that it is hateful to say someone SUFFERS.

It is however unchristian to enjoy (or rejoice in) the sufferings and pains of others. And if I could remember the verse, I believe the Bible says the same thing.

MC
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