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  #1  
Old Feb 3, '08, 9:34 pm
Charlie Zeaiter Charlie Zeaiter is offline
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Default Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

In some Eastern Churches, Lent begins on Ash Monday and not Ash Wednesday.

Does anybody know why?
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  #2  
Old Feb 3, '08, 9:40 pm
Ungcsertez Ungcsertez is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Zeaiter View Post
In some Eastern Churches, Lent begins on Ash Monday and not Ash Wednesday.

Does anybody know why?
It is called the first day of the Great Fast and NOT ASH MONDAY!
No Eastern Church uses ashes, that is a Latin Particular Church custom. It is a day of Strict Fast, no meat, no dairy.

Ung
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  #3  
Old Feb 3, '08, 9:44 pm
ASimpleSinner ASimpleSinner is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungcsertez View Post
It is called the first day of the Great Fast and NOT ASH MONDAY!
No Eastern Church uses ashes, that is a Latin Particular Church custom. It is a day of Strict Fast, no meat, no dairy.

Ung
The Maronites do, Ung.

Don't take my word.
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  #4  
Old Feb 3, '08, 9:47 pm
Ungcsertez Ungcsertez is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASimpleSinner View Post
The Maronites do, Ung.

Don't take my word.
Is that not another example of a Latinization?

Ung
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  #5  
Old Feb 3, '08, 9:52 pm
Charlie Zeaiter Charlie Zeaiter is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Ok, well what about the Great Fast; Is that a 40 day season too? And if so, how are the 40 days counted?
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  #6  
Old Feb 3, '08, 10:04 pm
Ungcsertez Ungcsertez is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

http://www.oca.org./OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=64

Ung
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  #7  
Old Feb 3, '08, 10:14 pm
ASimpleSinner ASimpleSinner is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungcsertez View Post
Is that not another example of a Latinization?

Ung
That it may very well be... and?

You asserted it was not found in eastern churches. It is there, Latinization or not...

In the case of the Maronites, without corresponding non-Catholic counterpart, it is kind of difficult to expect them to not evolve or reform liturgies in any fashion, and if to do so to do so exclusively from neighboring Eastern liturgical families.

And as Latinized as they may be, my brief time with them for a few months in Cali when I could ride a bus to their parish but not ours, something refreshing about them (at times) was in response to my question "Is that a Latinization?" was generally "That's just how we do." The somewhat laidback approach to what is a Maronite tradition seemed to work for them. "Its ours, we do what we want" I guess.
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  #8  
Old Feb 3, '08, 10:18 pm
Ungcsertez Ungcsertez is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungcsertez View Post
http://www.melkite.org/lent.htm

Ung
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  #9  
Old Feb 4, '08, 12:52 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

**It is called the first day of the Great Fast and NOT ASH MONDAY!**

It's also called Pure Monday.
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  #10  
Old Feb 4, '08, 6:03 am
ELEUTHERIUS ELEUTHERIUS is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

The Great Fast lasts forty days. Just begin counting from the first day of the Great Fast ( Pure Monday)until you reach the fortieth day.

Yours in Christ,

Father Deacon Paul
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  #11  
Old Feb 4, '08, 9:53 am
Diak Diak is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

The 40-day Great Fast begins after Forgiveness Vespers on the eve of Clean Monday, and extends until the eve of Lazarus Saturday. It is the immediate preparation for Passion (Holy) Week and the glorious Pascha.
FDRLB
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  #12  
Old Feb 4, '08, 6:13 pm
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Harpazo Harpazo is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASimpleSinner View Post
That it may very well be... and?

You asserted it was not found in eastern churches. It is there, Latinization or not...

In the case of the Maronites, without corresponding non-Catholic counterpart, it is kind of difficult to expect them to not evolve or reform liturgies in any fashion, and if to do so to do so exclusively from neighboring Eastern liturgical families.

And as Latinized as they may be, my brief time with them for a few months in Cali when I could ride a bus to their parish but not ours, something refreshing about them (at times) was in response to my question "Is that a Latinization?" was generally "That's just how we do." The somewhat laidback approach to what is a Maronite tradition seemed to work for them. "Its ours, we do what we want" I guess.
I was at a Maronite Qurbono tonight and the priest who is extremely against Latinizations (and understandable so), mentioned how the ritual was inherited from the Roman Church. It's not necessarily a bad thing, the distribution of ashes, but it's not an authentic Maronite tradition. The Maronites, from what I can gather (reading, attending Qurbono, talking with parishioners, etc) have an extremely hard time with their liturgy and trying to keep it distinctly Syro-Antiochene, Maronite specifically.

From what I understand, there's a strong movement in the Maronite Church to return to the days before the Roman Church "dropped the bomb on them" so to speak.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew
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  #13  
Old Feb 5, '08, 12:18 pm
ASimpleSinner ASimpleSinner is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
I was at a Maronite Qurbono tonight and the priest who is extremely against Latinizations (and understandable so), mentioned how the ritual was inherited from the Roman Church. It's not necessarily a bad thing, the distribution of ashes, but it's not an authentic Maronite tradition. The Maronites, from what I can gather (reading, attending Qurbono, talking with parishioners, etc) have an extremely hard time with their liturgy and trying to keep it distinctly Syro-Antiochene, Maronite specifically.

From what I understand, there's a strong movement in the Maronite Church to return to the days before the Roman Church "dropped the bomb on them" so to speak.

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew
It is in fact a complicated issue, with some parties looking for restoration of pre-Roman influence, some liking the status quo of todays post conciliar liturgy, and a third (smallest) party promoting a return to the much more heavily latinized pre-Vatican II "Marinonite Mass". (The SSPX supports such an effort, having an affiliated monastery in Scotland where two or three Maronites celebrate the "old rite" in fiddlebacks at high altars. I kid you not!)

Questions of "the bomb being dropped" are sort of difficult to sort through. Regardless of origins of some practices, how many generations may something exist before it is said to be "owned" by the locals? What mandate is there to always and everywhere seek restoration of older or more primative usages? At what point does one start to run into issues of Antiquarianism? What is the "magic date" for the perfect template of liturgy?

I used to be very concerned about all these things... It occured to me that it is remarkable difficult to be a "purist" to anyone's satisfaction though. Certainly no significant party of Romans is clamoring for the expurgation of that eastern-originated holiday Christmas! And if you should meet any Roman voiciferously demanding a return to Masses in catacomb tombs and recieiving converts by having them to wear sack clothe and ashes, gently suggest they seek counseling.

A decade ago I met a pious Maronite who lived through some atrocities no child should live through during the Leabanese Civil War. He emerged from the experience deeply spiritual. He became a vegetarian on the spiritual merits of its penitential nature, and wishing to take himself outside of the cycle of seeing life ended rather than based on the merits of his Maronite patrimony. He developped a great love for the Rosary and a joy in reading about Saing Margaret Mary's writings on the Sacred Heart. He would not dream of not receiving the Eucharist daily, and went to Roman Mass often. He would not dream of NOT going to it because it was not Maronite... If he read about a saint in the Roman Church or one of the new martyrs from the Greek Catholic Church, he would frequently develop a spiritual relationship to them.

Now if any party here wishes to approach this man and tell him to quit talking to the Mother of God with that Roman rosary or to Jesus in adoration, or worrying about the writings of saints who came from France... Well do me a favor and give me a heads-up. I want to be in another room far, far away when that goes down.

I don't mean to belabor the point, but my time with the Maronites has made me sensitive to those outside the community who, acting as purists, put the moniker of "Latinized" in them all too readily and knowingly (often smugly) want to say "look at them! What a pity! tsk, tsk". A few months back, a YouTube clip of their liturgy seemed to be brought up on CAF by parties who I can't help but believe had no more edifying intention than to do just that.
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  #14  
Old Feb 6, '08, 5:25 pm
andyv andyv is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungcsertez View Post
It is called the first day of the Great Fast and NOT ASH MONDAY!
No Eastern Church uses ashes, that is a Latin Particular Church custom. It is a day of Strict Fast, no meat, no dairy.

Ung
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  #15  
Old Feb 7, '08, 12:25 am
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: Ash Monday or Ash Wednesday

I just visited a Latin parish for Ash Wednesday. I asked the priest why they put on the ashes. He told me that it is a symbol of our need for Christ in our sinfulness, and the penitent attitude we are to have during Lent.

That sold me. We Copts greatly love symbolism, and I thought the symbolism was so deep it made me almost cry.

Who cares about the origins of a practice? "Is it righteous and holy?" - that is the only question that ever enters my mind. All else is legalism.

I give a two thumbs up for Ash Wednesday, whichever particular Church may practice it.

BTW, I saw a Mexican woman help an old Chinese lady to her seat during the Mass. Of course I love my Coptic tradition, but I also greatly appreciate how evidently Catholic (i.e., embraces all people) the Latin Catholic Church is.

Blessings,
Marduk
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