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  #1  
Old Feb 12, '08, 7:08 pm
sunflower74 sunflower74 is offline
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Default Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

I was reading Mark today for my New Testament class, and I read Matthew last week. after reading both I noticed that in the Passion narratives it doesn't talk about Jesus falling 3 times as He is carrying the cross. I looked for it in Luke and John and couldn't find it there either. But this is part of the Stations of the Cross...I was wondering where in the Bible this is described? Maybe I am just overlooking it for some reason, but can anyone tell me where to find this? thanks!

Last edited by sunflower74; Feb 12, '08 at 7:25 pm.
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  #2  
Old Feb 12, '08, 7:48 pm
MH84 MH84 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower74 View Post
I was reading Mark today for my New Testament class, and I read Matthew last week. after reading both I noticed that in the Passion narratives it doesn't talk about Jesus falling 3 times as He is carrying the cross. I looked for it in Luke and John and couldn't find it there either. But this is part of the Stations of the Cross...I was wondering where in the Bible this is described? Maybe I am just overlooking it for some reason, but can anyone tell me where to find this? thanks!
The "classical" Stations of the Cross contains some tradtions in it, but most of the stations are scriptural.

I think the 3 falls, Veronica wiping the face of Jesus (station 6) and Jesus meeting His mother (station 4) are based on tradition.

If you want, try typing "Stations of the Cross" in wikipedia and see what you get.

I know that Pope John Paul II released a version of the Stations which are 100% scriptural.
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  #3  
Old Feb 15, '08, 5:29 pm
Gottle of Geer Gottle of Geer is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

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Originally Posted by sunflower74 View Post
I was reading Mark today for my New Testament class, and I read Matthew last week. after reading both I noticed that in the Passion narratives it doesn't talk about Jesus falling 3 times as He is carrying the cross. I looked for it in Luke and John and couldn't find it there either. But this is part of the Stations of the Cross...I was wondering where in the Bible this is described? Maybe I am just overlooking it for some reason, but can anyone tell me where to find this? thanks!
## The three falls, & the meeting with His mother, & the Veronica episode, are all non-Biblical.
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  #4  
Old Feb 17, '08, 1:29 pm
DDClark DDClark is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

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Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer View Post
## The three falls, & the meeting with His mother, & the Veronica episode, are all non-Biblical.
Why were these specific stations included? Where did the non-Biblical tradition(s) originate?

Last edited by DDClark; Feb 17, '08 at 1:30 pm. Reason: addition
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  #5  
Old Feb 17, '08, 1:33 pm
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Scottgun Scottgun is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

Sorry to quibble, but the falling is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture, but I would not call it non-Biblical. That's a word I associate with being at variance with the gospel message. So while Mary's assumption is not mentioned in Scripture, the examples of Elijah and Enoch demonstrate that assumption itself is biblical.
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  #6  
Old Feb 18, '09, 12:58 am
Flos Campi Flos Campi is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

quoted by Sunflower.
know that Pope John Paul II released a version of the Stations which are 100% scriptural.




Where could I obtain a copy of these Stations of the Cross by Pope John Paul II. ???


Thanks.
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  #7  
Old Feb 18, '09, 4:04 am
Mattjolley Mattjolley is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

here's what Wikipedia says about the scriptural stations:

Out of the fourteen traditional Stations of the Cross, only eight have clear scriptural foundation. Stations 3, 4, 6, 7, and 9 are not specifically attested to in the gospels and Station 13 (representing Jesus's body being taken down off the cross and laid in the arms of his mother Mary) seems to embelish the gospels' record which state that Joseph of Arimathea took Jesus down from the cross and buried him. In order to provide a version of this devotion more closely aligned with the biblical accounts, Pope John Paul II introduced a new form of devotion, called the Scriptural Way of the Cross on Good Friday 1991. He celebrated that form thereafter at the Colosseum in Rome.[4][5] In 2007, Pope Benedict XVI approved this set of stations for meditation and public celebration: They follow this sequence:

Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane,
Jesus is betrayed by Judas and arrested,
Jesus is condemned by the Sanhedrin,
Jesus is denied by Peter,
Jesus is judged by Pilate,
Jesus is scourged and crowned with thorns,
Jesus takes up his cross,
Jesus is helped by Simon to carry his cross,
Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem,
Jesus is crucified,
Jesus promises his kingdom to the good thief,
Jesus entrusts Mary and John to each other,
Jesus dies on the cross,
Jesus is laid in the tomb



I must admit when 'modern' stations count the resurrection as the 15th station I get really annoyed.

The whole purpose of the Stations of the Cross is to focus on the passion, and saving death, of Jesus. How do others feel?
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  #8  
Old Feb 18, '09, 4:25 am
CentralFLJames CentralFLJames is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

Luke 23:26
As they led him away they took hold of a certain Simon, a Cyrenian, who was coming in from the country; and after laying the cross on him, they made him carry it behind Jesus.


Mark 15:20-21
And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the purple cloak, dressed him in his own clothes, and led him out to crucify him. They pressed into service a passer-by, Simon, a Cyrenian, 8 who was coming in from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross.


Matthew 27:31-32
And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the cloak, dressed him in his own clothes, and led him off to crucify him.
32 As they were going out, they met a Cyrenian named Simon; this man they pressed into service to carry his cross.


Well if we take these above 3 scripture verses literally without any tradition then it seems that Jesus never carried the cross at all and it was Simon the Cytenian who carried the cross the whole way for Jesus. But if we take the following verses from John without the benefit of tradtion then none of it makes sense since John says Jesus carried it himself.

John 19:16-18
Then he handed him over to them to be crucified. 6 So they took Jesus, 17 and carrying the cross himself he went out to what is called the Place of the Skull, in Hebrew, Golgotha. 18 There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, with Jesus in the middle.


How do the fundamentalists resolve this blatant contradiction in scripture without Catholic Tradition?

Did Jesus even carry His Cross at all? If Jesus carried it did He fall one or more times?

Tradition tells us Jesus did carry His cross and after falling 3 times and near death Simon The Cyrenian was made to carry it.


James
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  #9  
Old Feb 18, '09, 4:51 am
Christy Beth Christy Beth is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

I feel an argument starting here. Many of the "non-biblical" teachings are considered valid. At the end of the gospel of John, he said that there were many things that weren't written down. These would have been passed down verbally. And this is what's called "Tradition."
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  #10  
Old Feb 18, '09, 7:13 am
Mattjolley Mattjolley is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

excellent point, christybeth.
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  #11  
Old Feb 19, '09, 3:49 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDClark View Post
Why were these specific stations included? Where did the non-Biblical tradition(s) originate?
I think it was either a very wise (and very plausible) pious conjecture or an actual small-t tradition handed down. After all, a man who suffered heavy blood loss and lack of sleep and proper nutrition is liable to fall down while carrying a rather heavy beam of wood on his shoulders for some period of time. Add to that trying to walk into a roughly-paved narrow street filled with dirt and refuse.

An interesting fact though is that in the Middle Ages it was believed that Jesus did not only fall down to the ground three times, but seven times (the Septem Christi Casus or "Seven Falls of Christ"). In fact, the devotion to these seven incidents was one of the ancestors of our modern-day Stations of the Cross.

A set from Nüremberg in the late 15th century gives the following incidents that happened during each 'fall':
1.) Jesus meets His mother.
2.) Jesus is helped by Simon of Cyrene.
3.) Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem.
4.) Jesus meets Veronica.
5.) Jesus sinks under the cross and is belaboured by the Jews.
6.) Jesus is prostrate under the cross (after having been crucified).
7.) Jesus is laid in the arms of His mother.
An early 16th century set from Louvain, meanwhile, gives the Seven (plus one) 'Falls' as:
1.) Jesus is condemned to death.
2.) Jesus falls the first time.
3.) Jesus is helped by Simon of Cyrene.
4.) Jesus meets Veronica.
5.) Jesus falls the second time.
6.) Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem.
7.) Jesus falls the third time.
[8.) Jesus is stripped of His garments.]
Interestingly, Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich's visions also follow medieval tradition in this one and shows seven falls by Jesus.
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  #12  
Old Sep 25, '11, 2:22 am
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E Thrower II E Thrower II is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames View Post
Luke 23:26
As they led him away they took hold of a certain Simon, a Cyrenian, who was coming in from the country; and after laying the cross on him, they made him carry it behind Jesus.


Mark 15:20-21
And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the purple cloak, dressed him in his own clothes, and led him out to crucify him. They pressed into service a passer-by, Simon, a Cyrenian, 8 who was coming in from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross.


Matthew 27:31-32
And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the cloak, dressed him in his own clothes, and led him off to crucify him.
32 As they were going out, they met a Cyrenian named Simon; this man they pressed into service to carry his cross.


Well if we take these above 3 scripture verses literally without any tradition then it seems that Jesus never carried the cross at all and it was Simon the Cytenian who carried the cross the whole way for Jesus. But if we take the following verses from John without the benefit of tradtion then none of it makes sense since John says Jesus carried it himself.

John 19:16-18
Then he handed him over to them to be crucified. 6 So they took Jesus, 17 and carrying the cross himself he went out to what is called the Place of the Skull, in Hebrew, Golgotha. 18 There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, with Jesus in the middle.


How do the fundamentalists resolve this blatant contradiction in scripture without Catholic Tradition?

Did Jesus even carry His Cross at all? If Jesus carried it did He fall one or more times?

Tradition tells us Jesus did carry His cross and after falling 3 times and near death Simon The Cyrenian was made to carry it.


James
Bare with me but...

I was reading Ezekiel 1:1-12 about the beast with four faces: the Lion, the Ox, the Man, and the Eagle and I found four scriptures pointing to the coming of Christ and these four faces.

Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth… etc.

Zech 6:12 Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH… etc.

Zech 9:9 … behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; … etc.

Each gospel writer was inspired to write with an emphasis on one of these four faces; each of them representing Christ.

Mathew emphasizes Christ as King (Lion): genealogy by succession, says Jesus was “born King of the Jews,” and refers to Christ as “… a Governor that shall rule over Israel.”

Mark emphasizes Christ as a servant (Ox): hence, no genealogy or origin. Who cares about the genealogy of a slave or servant?

Luke emphasizes Christ as a man (Humanity): genealogy by nature from the Virgin Mary all the way back to Adam to show he was born into the human race. Luke’s gospel is the only gospel where Jesus himself says he endured temptation (ref. Lk 22:28 – as in good, to prove by trial, ref. Heb 5:8). Not long after in Lk 22:44 Jesus prayed so hard his sweat was as great drops of blood (Lukian exclusive). Jesus teaches how to deal with temptation in Luke’s gospel more than any other.

John emphasizes Christ as the Deity (Eagle), the three in one: John immediately refers to him as the Word, God, and the Light. The only gospel Jesus says, “I and my Father are one.” When Jesus prays, John only uses the Greek#2065 as when “a king makes request of another king.” John’s is the only gospel Jesus says, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.” Pointing to his word and communion. The word “temptation” is not in John’s gospel save to describe the actions of the Pharisees questioning about the law.

So each gospel is from a different perspective according to its respective symbol: Mathew - Lion (Christ’s Kingship), Mark - Ox (Christ’s servitude), Luke – Man (Christ's humanity), and John – Eagle (Christ’s Deity).

So while Mathew, Mark, and Luke show Jesus has help carrying the cross, John makes no mention of it because it is not relevant to that perspective. I don't think it means that he did not have help. I think it simply means John does not include it because as the Deity we know he could have snapped his finger and made it all happen in a blink.

I know that is a lot but I hope I said something to encourage, inspire, and edify. I enjoy this stuff. God bless.
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  #13  
Old Sep 25, '11, 4:15 am
You You is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames View Post
Luke 23:26
As they led him away they took hold of a certain Simon, a Cyrenian, who was coming in from the country; and after laying the cross on him, they made him carry it behind Jesus.


Mark 15:20-21
And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the purple cloak, dressed him in his own clothes, and led him out to crucify him. They pressed into service a passer-by, Simon, a Cyrenian, 8 who was coming in from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross.


Matthew 27:31-32
And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the cloak, dressed him in his own clothes, and led him off to crucify him.
32 As they were going out, they met a Cyrenian named Simon; this man they pressed into service to carry his cross.


Well if we take these above 3 scripture verses literally without any tradition then it seems that Jesus never carried the cross at all and it was Simon the Cytenian who carried the cross the whole way for Jesus. But if we take the following verses from John without the benefit of tradtion then none of it makes sense since John says Jesus carried it himself.

John 19:16-18
Then he handed him over to them to be crucified. 6 So they took Jesus, 17 and carrying the cross himself he went out to what is called the Place of the Skull, in Hebrew, Golgotha. 18 There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, with Jesus in the middle.


How do the fundamentalists resolve this blatant contradiction in scripture without Catholic Tradition?

Did Jesus even carry His Cross at all? If Jesus carried it did He fall one or more times?

Tradition tells us Jesus did carry His cross and after falling 3 times and near death Simon The Cyrenian was made to carry it.


James
Non-Catholic fundamentalists must choose one of these choices then;
1. The Gospels are inspired and true and correct and incorrect at the same time.
2. The fundamentalists must invent a tradition themselves while rejecting all history and tradition before their foundation.
3. Fundamentalists must look to the Catholic Church to see what the tradition taught about this and recreate something but deny it is tradition.
4. They must pass over this without comment.
5. They must accept what is both a tradition and the Catholic Churches tradition.
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  #14  
Old Sep 25, '11, 1:30 pm
steve53 steve53 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick457 View Post
I think it was either a very wise (and very plausible) pious conjecture or an actual small-t tradition handed down. After all, a man who suffered heavy blood loss and lack of sleep and proper nutrition is liable to fall down while carrying a rather heavy beam of wood on his shoulders for some period of time. Add to that trying to walk into a roughly-paved narrow street filled with dirt and refuse.

An interesting fact though is that in the Middle Ages it was believed that Jesus did not only fall down to the ground three times, but seven times (the Septem Christi Casus or "Seven Falls of Christ"). In fact, the devotion to these seven incidents was one of the ancestors of our modern-day Stations of the Cross.

A set from Nüremberg in the late 15th century gives the following incidents that happened during each 'fall':
1.) Jesus meets His mother.
2.) Jesus is helped by Simon of Cyrene.
3.) Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem.
4.) Jesus meets Veronica.
5.) Jesus sinks under the cross and is belaboured by the Jews.
6.) Jesus is prostrate under the cross (after having been crucified).
7.) Jesus is laid in the arms of His mother.
An early 16th century set from Louvain, meanwhile, gives the Seven (plus one) 'Falls' as:
1.) Jesus is condemned to death.
2.) Jesus falls the first time.
3.) Jesus is helped by Simon of Cyrene.
4.) Jesus meets Veronica.
5.) Jesus falls the second time.
6.) Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem.
7.) Jesus falls the third time.
[8.) Jesus is stripped of His garments.]
Interestingly, Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich's visions also follow medieval tradition in this one and shows seven falls by Jesus.
Don't you think this "Jesus falling down" stuff is pretty silly? I do not think it helps Catholicism to embrace or promote this sort of mythology.

Remember, Jesus worked through to manhood as a carpenter. He was probably as strong and fit as anyone.

For what its worth, a certain author-who-shall-be-nameless has gone over Josephus
and other sources and has concluded that Jesus' trial and public conviction by Pilate took place outside Herod's palace, which was only a hundred or so feet away from the west wall of the Second Temple. The Praetorium was inside the palace walls, and the Gabatha was a public area just outside the walls near the palace's main gate. From there, Jesus would ha ve been led to the west along the road that ran south of Herod's palace to the site of Golgotha, which is likely where the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is now.
Point being that the road was probably not narrow and full of refuse, but relative wide for the times, cobblestoned, and well-maintained.
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Old Sep 25, '11, 2:51 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Jesus fell 3 times on the way to Calvary...where?

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Originally Posted by steve53 View Post
Don't you think this "Jesus falling down" stuff is pretty silly? I do not think it helps Catholicism to embrace or promote this sort of mythology.

Remember, Jesus worked through to manhood as a carpenter. He was probably as strong and fit as anyone.
You're forgetting that crucifixions are preceded by a flogging, which would have cut down on how far one would have been able to carry the crossbeam: sure there is some disagreement about the exact intensity of the scourging, but Jesus was hardly in a 'strong and fit' state at the time of His death possibly due to shock, blood loss and perhaps a few other factors, His job experience notwithstanding. "Is it worthwhile to weigh down on one's wound and hang impaled on a gibbet in order to postpone something which is the balm of troubles, the end of punishment? Can anyone be found who would prefer wasting away in pain dying limb by limb, or letting out his life drop by drop, rather than expiring once for all? Can any man be found willing to be fastened to the accursed tree, long sickly, already deformed, swelling with ugly weals on shoulders and chest, and drawing the breath of life amid long drawn-out agony? He would have many excuses for dying even before mounting the cross."

There was this National Geographic documentary on crucifixion (yes, I know NG does not have much of a good publicity on these parts, but believe me that program was one good exception IMHO) where they had a healthy man carry a 120-pound crossbeam over a quarter-mile course. Midway the weight of the crossbeam started to bear down on the volunteer's back, shoulders and arms; at about less than 150 yards the volunteer gives out.

And oh yes, Jesus was actually a tekton.

Quote:
For what its worth, a certain author-who-shall-be-nameless has gone over Josephus and other sources and has concluded that Jesus' trial and public conviction by Pilate took place outside Herod's palace, which was only a hundred or so feet away from the west wall of the Second Temple. The Praetorium was inside the palace walls, and the Gabatha was a public area just outside the walls near the palace's main gate. From there, Jesus would ha ve been led to the west along the road that ran south of Herod's palace to the site of Golgotha, which is likely where the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is now.
Point being that the road was probably not narrow and full of refuse, but relative wide for the times, cobblestoned, and well-maintained.
As I've said to you on another thread, I mostly agree with this idea (of Herod's Palace in western Jerusalem being the Praetorium instead of the Antonia Fortress in the northeast, as medieval tradition has it) but I've not yet considered the actual route. Aside from the one the certain anonymous author proposes, I've seen a possible alternative which goes INSIDE the city.
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