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  #1  
Old Mar 3, '08, 10:06 am
Patso Patso is offline
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Default Rcia Children

Is there some kind of rule about children in the RCIA program? I teach the First Penance/Communion class. Last year I had a boy in my class who wasn't baptized but was in the RCIA program.
He was baptized, confirmed, received communion during the Easter vigil.
But, the priest allowed him be with the First Communion class when they made their first communion.

I thought this was unfair the other children of the same age who were baptized sent to instructions and will continue to attend instructions and can't make confirmation till they are 12.

Why couldn't this boy get baptized and continue with his class?

And interesting enough he made his first confession this year with my class.

Now, this year I have a girl with is ten and she is in the RCIA but only attends my class. Nobody else has given her instructions and she too will be come a Catholic at the Easter vigil this year. I don't see how this is fair. I'm sure she will be involved in the First Commuion mass too.

Is this acceptable?
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  #2  
Old Mar 3, '08, 10:27 am
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KarenElissa KarenElissa is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Once I child is over the age of reason, 7ish, they are considered adults for the purpose of RCIA. They receive the Sacraments all together at Easter Vigil just like the adults who are coming into the Church.

I'm sure someone who can explain it better will come along, but that is the basic idea.
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  #3  
Old Mar 3, '08, 10:46 am
Br. Rich SFO Br. Rich SFO is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patso View Post
Is there some kind of rule about children in the RCIA program? I teach the First Penance/Communion class. Last year I had a boy in my class who wasn't baptized but was in the RCIA program.
He was baptized, confirmed, received communion during the Easter vigil.
But, the priest allowed him be with the First Communion class when they made their first communion.

I thought this was unfair the other children of the same age who were baptized sent to instructions and will continue to attend instructions and can't make confirmation till they are 12.

Why couldn't this boy get baptized and continue with his class?

And interesting enough he made his first confession this year with my class.

Now, this year I have a girl with is ten and she is in the RCIA but only attends my class. Nobody else has given her instructions and she too will be come a Catholic at the Easter vigil this year. I don't see how this is fair. I'm sure she will be involved in the First Commuion mass too.

Is this acceptable?
It is a bit convulted and confusing the way your pasish seems to be applying the rules.

Any person over Catechetical age or the Age of Reason, is to be Catechized in the RCIA process for one full liturgical year. Then receive the three Sacraments of Initiation, Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist at the same time (or liturgy). First Confession can come a bit later since Reconciliation is not required prior to Baptism. Catechesis should of course take place before the reception of the Sacraments, not after.
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  #4  
Old Mar 3, '08, 11:31 am
deb1 deb1 is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patso View Post
Is there some kind of rule about children in the RCIA program? I teach the First Penance/Communion class. Last year I had a boy in my class who wasn't baptized but was in the RCIA program.
He was baptized, confirmed, received communion during the Easter vigil.
But, the priest allowed him be with the First Communion class when they made their first communion.

I thought this was unfair the other children of the same age who were baptized sent to instructions and will continue to attend instructions and can't make confirmation till they are 12.

Why couldn't this boy get baptized and continue with his class?

And interesting enough he made his first confession this year with my class.

Now, this year I have a girl with is ten and she is in the RCIA but only attends my class. Nobody else has given her instructions and she too will be come a Catholic at the Easter vigil this year. I don't see how this is fair. I'm sure she will be involved in the First Commuion mass too.

Is this acceptable?
My entire family was welcome into the Catholic Church when my daughter was seven or eight. She was baptised, recieved communion and confirmation all at once. She was not put into any class but the same ones her peers were. I don't see that as being unfair, because she would have had the same info as other girls her age recieving communion.

The priest also allowed her to take a different first communion with her peer group, so she basically had two first communions.

Was it fair? I don't know. None of the other kids seemed upset that she got to have two ceremonies for first communion. My daughter still calls the communion that she took with her peers her 'first communion.'

Really it wasn't fair that her peers had supportive families who came and took pictures of their niece or nephew getting communion but her uncle refused to come because it was a "Catholic ceremony."

I'm an adult but I feel like my RCIA wasn't infomative enough. Most of what I know about my faith has been self taught.
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  #5  
Old Mar 3, '08, 9:01 pm
panoikei panoikei is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Some of you may be getting confused with RCIC, Rite of Christian Initiation for Children. RCIA is for adults. My oldest son went through RCIC while my wife and I went through RCIA. Our little ones were just baptized. The Pastor makes judgement calls because he has pastoral authority. I discovered later that the Bishop really sets what he wants to happen and the Pastor is basically trying to comply with the desires of the bishop, assume the priest is not a rebel.

This is not a matter of its not fair. We're grown adults here. Some teens. But the point is that the Pastor has to make a judgement call for what's best for the child, not just the entire group. Children that come from other faith traditions are typically a bit more prepared if they were active in the other faith. We went to basically Sunday morning and Wednesday night bible classes and Sunday morning and Sunday evenging/sometimes Wednesday brief Worship or devotional as the time would dictate. To top that off we were very active throughout the year doing other things together in the community in afternoons, etc. In many ways it was expected and low to the one who missed it. Protestants may not have the fullness of faith but they sure do exhibit a bit more dedication at times...even if it is induced by fear.

So dont' be so hard on these converts. You may not realize that some of us have been cut off by family and this is all we have. To keep us from the sactifying grace through the sacraments would merely be cruel in some cases. My wife already knew the Catholic faith before attending even the first day of RCIA. She wouldn't have dared walked in even the Mass without some kind of idea of what it was. My son feared we go to hell when we first walked in with all those statues and stuff. It was very wierd to them. Like I said, we make sacrifices that many cradle Catholics just would never understand. Just as someone who's never been truly poor would never understand true poverty, or a wartime verteran or whatever analogy that works for you.
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  #6  
Old Mar 3, '08, 9:41 pm
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenElissa View Post
Once I child is over the age of reason, 7ish, they are considered adults for the purpose of RCIA. They receive the Sacraments all together at Easter Vigil just like the adults who are coming into the Church.

I'm sure someone who can explain it better will come along, but that is the basic idea.
That is basically it. See
Quote:
Canon 852 1. The prescripts of the canons on adult baptism are to be applied to all those who, no longer infants, have attained the use of reason.

If anyone seven or older is baptized they must be immediately confirmed and receive communion. However, considering learning ability, and subjects to be covered in preparation, they are usually prepared in age appropriate classes - pre-teens, teens and adults. However, all receive the sacraments together at the Holy Saturday Vigil Mass.

Note that the reception of First Communion before Confirmation is was a papal permission of the 20th century. If one does not receive First Communion at age seven, one must be confirmed before receiving Communion.
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  #7  
Old Mar 4, '08, 4:54 am
Br. Rich SFO Br. Rich SFO is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by panoikei View Post
Some of you may be getting confused with RCIC, Rite of Christian Initiation for Children. RCIA is for adults. My oldest son went through RCIC while my wife and I went through RCIA. Our little ones were just baptized. The Pastor makes judgement calls because he has pastoral authority. I discovered later that the Bishop really sets what he wants to happen and the Pastor is basically trying to comply with the desires of the bishop, assume the priest is not a rebel.

This is not a matter of its not fair. We're grown adults here. Some teens. But the point is that the Pastor has to make a judgement call for what's best for the child, not just the entire group. Children that come from other faith traditions are typically a bit more prepared if they were active in the other faith. We went to basically Sunday morning and Wednesday night bible classes and Sunday morning and Sunday evenging/sometimes Wednesday brief Worship or devotional as the time would dictate. To top that off we were very active throughout the year doing other things together in the community in afternoons, etc. In many ways it was expected and low to the one who missed it. Protestants may not have the fullness of faith but they sure do exhibit a bit more dedication at times...even if it is induced by fear.

So dont' be so hard on these converts. You may not realize that some of us have been cut off by family and this is all we have. To keep us from the sactifying grace through the sacraments would merely be cruel in some cases. My wife already knew the Catholic faith before attending even the first day of RCIA. She wouldn't have dared walked in even the Mass without some kind of idea of what it was. My son feared we go to hell when we first walked in with all those statues and stuff. It was very wierd to them. Like I said, we make sacrifices that many cradle Catholics just would never understand. Just as someone who's never been truly poor would never understand true poverty, or a wartime verteran or whatever analogy that works for you.
There is not such thing as RCIC, it is an innovation of some parishes and does not exist officially in the Catholic Church.

There are two possibilities. Infant Baptism up to or about age 7 and RCIA for those over 7. RCIA is specifically laid out as a liturgical Rite with certain steps and processes to be completed in a specific order.

The Catechesis methods and content should be adapted to certain age and learning abilities. But the overall Rite and steps are to remain unaltered. Except as specified in the Rite for certain specific situations like sudden serious illness or injury of a Catechumen or Candidate. Priests are not generally given the ability to licitly Confirm any except those Adults (over 7) Baptized by them. The Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Communion are not to be re-arranged or separated.

A priest who wishes to Receive a Candidate by celebrating Confirmation and Holy Communion must ask for and receive permission from the Bishop for each individual. The Bishop grants his permission to celebrate the Sacraments of Initiation at the Easter Vigil for those whose names are in the Book of the Elect, when he signs his name under theirs on the page. Usually a list of names for Candidates in RCIA or RCIA like process is given to the Bishop at the Rite of Continuing Conversion or sent at another time. The Bishop then signs the list and return it granting the pastor permission to Confirm them.
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  #8  
Old Mar 4, '08, 10:47 am
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Br. Rich SFO View Post
. . . A priest who wishes to Receive a Candidate by celebrating Confirmation and Holy Communion must ask for and receive permission from the Bishop for each individual. . . ..
I think that this may vary by diocese.

Our bishop has given pastors blanket permission to confirm those baptized elsewhere when they make a Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church. However, specific permission must be obtained to confirm one who was baptized Catholic - This is for such cases as when the spouse of an Elect or Candidate has been baptized Catholic and wishes to be Confirmed.
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  #9  
Old Mar 4, '08, 2:31 pm
Br. Rich SFO Br. Rich SFO is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Kelley View Post
I think that this may vary by diocese.

Our bishop has given pastors blanket permission to confirm those baptized elsewhere when they make a Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church. However, specific permission must be obtained to confirm one who was baptized Catholic - This is for such cases as when the spouse of an Elect or Candidate has been baptized Catholic and wishes to be Confirmed.
Canon Law says that the Bishop is the Ordinary minister of Confirmation in his diocese. So he should be aware of who is receiving this Sacrament.
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  #10  
Old Mar 4, '08, 6:20 pm
panoikei panoikei is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Sounds like you know more than the average bear. God bless you.
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  #11  
Old Mar 5, '08, 7:07 am
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patso View Post
Is there some kind of rule about children in the RCIA program? I teach the First Penance/Communion class. Last year I had a boy in my class who wasn't baptized but was in the RCIA program.
He was baptized, confirmed, received communion during the Easter vigil.
But, the priest allowed him be with the First Communion class when they made their first communion.
?
this boy was initiated as the Church prescribes.

please get some education on the RCIA and the process. the child was in your class probably because he was learning about the same things as the others his age, but should also have had some specific instruction, with his parents and godparents, related to the RCIA itself, preparation and meaning of the various rites etc.
Yes it was pastorally sensitive to also allow him to attend with his class, even though they were receiving first communion, and he had already done it.

it is not an issue of "fairness" it is an issue of law.
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  #12  
Old Mar 5, '08, 7:12 am
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by panoikei View Post
Some of you may be getting confused with RCIC, Rite of Christian Initiation for Children. RCIA is for adults. My oldest son went through RCIC while my wife and I went through RCIA. Our little ones were just baptized.
there is no such thing as RCIC except as a convenient acronym. There is only the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, which is the way in which unbaptized adults (those over age 7) are brought into the Catholic Church through baptism, confirmation and Eucharist at the Easter Vigil (unless another time is pastorally established). the RCIA is adapted for children to meet their needs in preparation and formation, called the Children's Catechumenate, but the rites, preparation, and order of sacramental initiation are the same.

When non-Catholic adults are brought into full communion with the Church, their children are initiated at the same time (if adults over age 7) and infants (under age 7) are baptized at this time if they have never been baptized.

Baptized individuals make first confession before first communion whether they are Catholic or not, child or adult. Those who are baptized at Easter prepare for and make first confession sometime after, during the mystagogy period.

for a child, the mystagogy instruction consists in RE class with his peers throughout the school years, since RCIA, for adults and youth, presents only the basics, and they still need thorough faith formation and education in the doctrine and practice of the Church.
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Old Mar 5, '08, 8:11 am
panoikei panoikei is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

Please don't be offended, I don't mean to, but I do mean to point out the spec in your eye while my log is very difficult to remove. LOL
Check this out:

http://www.fwdioc.org/search1.aspx?c...FORID%3A11#952

There are so many terms used in the Church that it can be quite uncharitable to constantly bash people on the head with "I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU" actions. Okay, got that out. But this is one website that I googled in an diocese. Take the time to write things a bit more charitable sounding. I'm pretty wrasp and am not ruffled that easily. The point is that scientificially: a 7 year old that has not been baptized is considerable different than a 25 year old that has not been baptized. It seems that even the Church authority recognizes this and have made moves to provide programs that follow along this line.

I know that our parish provides different programs that different children fall under because of their history. I won't detail them to bore you to death, but I think I'm being clear - let me know. My son was validly baptized and technically could have been prepared to receive is first communion by normal means. However, he needed to learn Catholic teaching... Well from my experience most Catholics ned to learn Catholic teaching. And based on the fact that a parish priest can deny baptizing a child because he does not believe the parents or guardian will actually teach and practice the faith, which in essence is also teaching by example.

I don't think RCIA is a "catholic teaching" but rather a program created for non-Catholics that are considering becoming Catholic or just to learn about the faith. It is also good for existing Catholics that want to learn or review, but rarely done. Most of the RCIA program volunteers I've seen are converts and some reverts. An existing Catholic that has have received baptism, confessin and communion are typically directed to attend RCIA. I'm a sponsor. I sponsored my wife, thus I'm involved in catichesis now along with my convert wife that teaches now. NO, I dont' have all the answers. But it is rather uncharitable to constantly act like you're conrrecting me on something that is not necessary.

I've been through it and did a lot of research on the subject for my family's sake. Many of you on this forum are reverts from what I've read. Many of us obviously need to learn more. Maybe its not me, but maybe its the presentation that moves me in such an uncomfortable way. That's one good reason pastors are in control in the parish, not us, so that the people that think they know everything don't have full reign. Who knows how many other religions would pop up as a result. SSPX? ring a bell. Or really even worse, those that believe we do not have a valid pope. What about the United States Catholic Church?

Example 1
RCIC is a program that is created under the RCIA program as an easy way to separate the younger children from the adults or older teens. So you might say that RCIC = RCIA.

Example 2
You are wrong. RCIC is NOT a program. ONLY RCIA. IT IS JUST A CONVENIENT WAY to...etc. etc...

I think you get my drift.

My wife told me something interesting just now. She said that gripe are typically are trying to get their "fix". They get their fix by finding things to gripe about.... I asked her to get me a link so I can post it the next time I run in to the legalists.

Peace be with you.
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  #14  
Old Mar 5, '08, 8:15 am
panoikei panoikei is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

One last thing. The local ordinary, that is the bishop, can require me to fast on Wednesdays if he chooses. He may also require other things as well. But that may not be the same for you. But as long as I am under his authority, I must obey him. Many Catholics don't know that. If you want to test that. A Pastor can refuse the help from a deacon. A Bishop/pastor or a priest/pastor can refuse deacons or even female altar servers. That's just a simple example. Intinction comes to mind as well. So why not RCIC?
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  #15  
Old Mar 5, '08, 9:34 am
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Rcia Children

I am very aware of the procedures for RCIA in the Fort Worth and other Texas dioceses through our professional associations, and because of participation in and throrough reading of particular law of the various TX diocese in committee reviewing and preparing documents for our own Diocese

FW does follow the RCIA as adapted by the US bishops, with regard to the Children's Catechumenate as well as for adults. What individual parishes do, I cannot say. You will not find the term RCIC in the ritual book.

the diocese, or nearby dioceses like Dallas or San Angelo, also host nearly every year a Beginnings Institute by the North American Forum on the Catechumenate, or a Beginnings for Children's Catechumenate. I highly recommend it for anyone involved in this field, or with sacramental catechesis for children in general. Since it is NAFC it is also helpful for what NOT to do in this area.

we are also working to bring a training seminar on RCIA from ACM to Texas in the near future, so watch out for that.
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