A Tale of Two Eucharists - Page 69

MaryJohnZ · #**1021** Apr 6, '08, 3:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

Funny that you should mention Elijah, Chuck. Was it not Elijah who was taken into heaven in bodily form?

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
(2 Kings 2:11)

It seems to me that someone does not have to have any kind of spiritual body to enter heaven. Then there is Peter:

25During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. "It's a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear.

27But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."
28"Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29"Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.

(Matthew 14)

Peter did not need any resurrected body to walk on water.

These historical events tell me that the examples of Jesus ascending into heaven and walking on water are not evidence that His body had some non-physical properties to it. Ascending into the sky and walking on water might be accomplished by God, for example, by making the atoms of one's body as light as those of oxygen.

This is not an absence of atoms, it is a change of accidents. That is, it is a change of the properties of the atoms. But the atoms still do not cease to exist.

That is what i'm thinking. What do you think?

I don't know what Chuck will say, but I can't think of anything that would say that what you are saying is wrong. I just also believe that the Resurrected or Glorified Body of Christ can appear as a normal body as well if the God Wills it, that He can reveal it as full of light or as a very normal body...that he is in total control of the appearance of His Body.

GodBless, maryjohnZ

Socrates4Jesus · #**1022** Apr 6, '08, 3:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pax

Does ToAslan have to "Walk Like an Ephesian?"

Yes, he walks like an Ephesian, but likely one of a different kind than whom you are thinking. Socrates' friend had this to say about them 400 years prior to Christ:

... the Ephesians themselves ... are downright mad, and you cannot talk with them ... For, in accordance with their textbooks, they are always in motion. But as for dwelling upon an argument or a question, and quietly asking and answering in turn, they can no more do so than they can fly! or rather, the determination of these fellows not to have a particle of rest in them is more than the utmost powers of negation can express. If you ask any of them a question, he will produce, as from a quiver, sayings brief and dark, and shoot them at you. And if you inquire the reason of what he has said, you will be hit by some other new-fangled word, and will make no way with any of them ... .

(Theaetetus, 179)

**jmcrae** · #**1023** Apr 6, '08, 3:05 pm

A friend of mine went a couple of Christmasses ago to see the Miracle of Lanciano. She says, yes, it is a Host, and it is actual flesh and blood (dried, but not decayed in any way) - she witnessed this for herself, and brought pictures for the rest of us to look at.

maryj · #**1024** Apr 6, '08, 3:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

I simply don't have the time to examine evidence that is not presented, JD. If you have something specific to bring to my attention, however, i will be happy to take a thoughtful look at it.

again...http://www.miraclerosarymission.org/lanciano.html

Socrates4Jesus · #**1025** Apr 6, '08, 3:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pax

Oh yeah, it is a mystery...no doubt about that.

I love the discussion about the water and the woman at the well. I do think that Jesus is making a reference to the Holy Spirit. In Genesis we read that the Spirit of God hovered over the waters.

Likewise God refers to himself as living water in the following passages:

Jeremiah 2:12-13
Be appalled, O heavens, at this, be shocked, be utterly desolate, says the Lord, for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters,

Jeremiah 17:13
O Lord, the hope of Israel, all who forsake thee shall be put to shame; those who turn away from thee shall be written in the earth, for they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living water.

We also know that the Holy Spirit is associated with baptismal water. We even know that the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus at his baptism by John in the river Jordan. This is a great sign to us for purposes of our own baptisms.

In an earlier post I mentioned that the outward sign in baptism is water, and that the outward signs in the Eucharist are bread and wine. It is the inward reality of the sacraments that are not visible. Through water we receive "the washing of regeneration" and "the Holy Spirit." These are inward and hidden gifts. They cannot be seen or measured. Likewise, the Eucharist has outward signs that speak to the inward and hidden gifts that cannot be seen, observed, or measured.

The forgiveness of sin is real. The Holy Spirit is real. The precious body and blood of Jesus resurrected body are real. We cannot see any of these things but they are promised and they are given to us.

Yes, Pax, but the puzzling thing is that Jesus speaks of drinking this living water. My question, then, is this: In what way does a Catholic drink the Holy Spirit?

Socrates4Jesus · #**1026** Apr 6, '08, 3:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

The drop of water signifies the water that poured forth from the side of Jesus together with His blood.

This water that flowed from Jesus' side signifies the Sacraments of forgiveness - Baptism and Reconciliation; thus, the drop of water in the wine/blood washes us (or signifies that we are washed) from our venial sins when we receive Holy Communion at Mass, and also reminds us that we have been washed from all of our sins in Baptism and in Reconciliation.

Thank you, JM. So it appears this drop of water is not the same living water of which Jesus spoke:

13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

(John 4)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=4&version=31

Then, just what is the living water we are to drink that will give us eternal life?

Socrates4Jesus · #**1027** Apr 6, '08, 3:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thing

Re: your question.
I can only view the thought dispassionately and say - thats what it means. It is real.
Of course I could try and impose my thoughts on it and say 'This is My Flesh' is not 'This is My Flesh'.

Yes, but think, Thing! My question was:

Do you think that what the woman by the well wanted was a drink of water, but what she needed was the Holy Spirit? Do you think this is why Jesus compared receiving the Holy Spirit to drinking living water?

Now, if Jesus literally meant that she had to drink living water in order to receive eternal life, then Catholics and non-Catholic Christians have a BIG problem. For they are drinking wine (or perhaps grape juice) but NOT living water.

If Jesus really meant you and i must drink living water or we would not live forever, then we better darn well figure out what this living water is! Our very eternal life depends on it, don't you think?

Socrates4Jesus · #**1028** Apr 6, '08, 3:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryJohnZ

I don't know what Chuck will say, but I can't think of anything that would say that what you are saying is wrong. I just also believe that the Resurrected or Glorified Body of Christ can appear as a normal body as well if the God Wills it, that He can reveal it as full of light or as a very normal body...that he is in total control of the appearance of His Body.

GodBless, maryjohnZ

Are you saying, Mary, that Jesus' resurrected body is more like a ghost than a human? Rather than looking for the return of a God-man, should we be looking for the return of a God-ghost?

**jmcrae** · #**1029** Apr 6, '08, 3:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

Thank you, JM. So it appears this drop of water is not the same living water of which Jesus spoke:

13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Or maybe it is, since it "comes forth from the right side of the Temple," as prophesied by Ezekiel, and we do, in fact, consume it whenever we receive from the Chalice.

(I am speculating, here. I don't actually know.)

Quote:

(John 4)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=4&version=31

Quote:

Then, just what is the living water we are to drink that will give us eternal life?

I don't know, either. (Which doesn't mean that nobody knows; it only means that I don't know.)

Perhaps it is water that we will drink when we get to Heaven?

Socrates4Jesus · #**1030** Apr 6, '08, 3:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

A friend of mine went a couple of Christmasses ago to see the Miracle of Lanciano. She says, yes, it is a Host, and it is actual flesh and blood (dried, but not decayed in any way) - she witnessed this for herself, and brought pictures for the rest of us to look at.

So the Eucharist really is the human flesh of Jesus, JM? or was it just in this one instance?

Pax · #**1031** Apr 6, '08, 3:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

I take it, then, you agree that (A) should be crossed off our list.

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....&postcount=981

As far as the substance of the Eucharist being actual evidence for itself, I would say "yes" unless we look at the Eucharistic miracles such as that of Lanciano. Such miracles would provide proof of the substance.

Socrates4Jesus · #**1032** Apr 6, '08, 3:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryj

again...http://www.miraclerosarymission.org/lanciano.html

Thank you, Mary. Let me tell you a story. When i was a child and lost something, my mother used to tell me to pray this:

Dear Saint Christopher, please come around. Something's lost and must be found.

I was rather forgetful as a child (still am, today, as you've probably noticed)!

This year my coworker, who is Roman Catholic, tells me that Christopher the Saint is now Christopher the Ain't! Seems the miracles attributed to God's approval of him have been proven a fraud.

I have to commend the Catholic church for fessing up and pointing out the lie, but it causes me to wonder whether any sanctioned miracle is really bona fide.

I think that this evidence, if produced by the defense of our lady the accused perp, would likely be thrown out by the judge as suspect.

Thing · #**1033** Apr 6, '08, 3:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

Yes, but think, Thing! My question was:

Do you think that what the woman by the well wanted was a drink of water, but what she needed was the Holy Spirit? Do you think this is why Jesus compared receiving the Holy Spirit to drinking living water?

Now, if Jesus literally meant that she had to drink living water in order to receive eternal life, then Catholics and non-Catholic Christians have a BIG problem. For they are drinking wine (or perhaps grape juice) but NOT living water.

If Jesus really meant you and i must drink living water or we would not live forever, then we better darn well figure out what this living water is! Our very eternal life depends on it, don't you think?

I already answered it.

Socrates4Jesus · #**1034** Apr 6, '08, 3:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

Or maybe it is, since it "comes forth from the right side of the Temple," as prophesied by Ezekiel, and we do, in fact, consume it whenever we receive from the Chalice.

(I am speculating, here. I don't actually know.)

I don't know, either. (Which doesn't mean that nobody knows; it only means that I don't know.)

Perhaps it is water that we will drink when we get to Heaven?

I appreciate your honesty, JM. Maybe someone else will know what this literal living water is that we must drink to live after death.

Socrates4Jesus · #**1035** Apr 6, '08, 3:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pax

As far as the substance of the Eucharist being actual evidence for itself, I would say "yes" unless we look at the Eucharistic miracles such as that of Lanciano. Such miracles would provide proof the substance.

Would you say, Pax, that this living water is the same? It is a mystery, wrapped inside an enigma, deep within the black hole of all that is unknowable?