A Tale of Two Eucharists

[Socrates4Jesus]

Is there anyone who disagrees with Pax? Does anyone think Jesus really did mean that we should literally drink the Holy Spirit?

10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
... 13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

(John 4)

[MaryJohnZ]

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

Are you saying, Mary, that Jesus' resurrected body is more like a ghost than a human? Rather than looking for the return of a God-man, should we be looking for the return of a God-ghost?

No I am not saying that.
I don't really know what a ghost is. Is it a disembodied soul that is lost between here and eternity? if that is the definition I am not saying that at all. I am saying that Christ in His Glorified Body has complete control over it and can cause it to be visible, tangible or can cause it to be viewed as if it is made of light, or can hide it completely accoding to his Will. Hw has the ability to change the accidental form of His body as I thought you were saying... That would mean you can't explain it according to the way we experience reality.

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by MaryJohnZ

No I am not saying that.
I don't really know what a ghost is. Is it a disembodied soul that is lost between here and eternity? if that is the definition I am not saying that at all. I am saying that Christ in His Glorified Body has complete control over it and can cause it to be visible, tangible or can cause it to be viewed as if it is made of light, or can hide it completely accoding to his Will. Hw has the ability to change the accidental form of His body as I thought you were saying... That would mean you can't explain it according to the way we experience reality.

Thanks for replying, Mary. Are you suggesting that Jesus makes His body an atomless body? or is your point that the atoms of Jesus' body are actually present in the host, but undetectable?

[jdungan7070]

well if you want to find the truth you have to do a little bit of searching for yourself....

I'm not going to just give you everything, sorry.

[Socrates4Jesus]

Question 19.

Did Jesus mean we should literally drink the Holy Spirit? or did He use the word drink as a metaphor for receiving the Holy Spirit?

13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

(John 4)


37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

(John 7)

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by jdungan7070

well if you want to find the truth you have to do a little bit of searching for yourself....

I'm not going to just give you everything, sorry.

Do you then disagree with the first Pope, JD?

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect ...

(1 Peter 3:15)

Or are you saying you don't have all the answers and are searching, just like me?

[jdungan7070]

haha...no

I gave you links

and recommended that you google "miracles of the eucharist"

but I really do like that passage so I will give you some information on the eucharistic miracle in Lanciano, Italy.


Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation ("Recognitions") were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.


The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.


The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.


In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.


The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.


The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).


In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.


In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.


The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.


This information came from this link:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucha.../lanciano.html

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by jdungan7070

haha...no

I gave you links

and recommended that you google "miracles of the eucharist"

but I really do like that passage so I will give you some information on the eucharistic miracle in Lanciano, Italy.


Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation ("Recognitions") were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.


The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.


The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.


In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.


The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.


The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).


In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.


In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.


The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.


This information came from this link:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucha.../lanciano.html

Thank you, JD, and i like those words of Peter, too.

I think that the antagonists of the Eucharists will advise me that the Middle Ages was a particularly violent and sinful time of history. They would counsel me that someone might have replaced the Eucharist with the heart and blood of an executed man.

That being said, i think that what would silence these critics might be more evidence. For example, are there any other instances in history of the same miracle occurring a second time?

[Pax]

Soc,

I haven't changed my statements. I am trying to emphasize the connection between the sign and the hidden reality. I am not denying the metaphorical dimension of drinking the living water.

When it comes to the Eucharist we do eat the bread and wine which are the outward signs and accidents. At the same time we are consuming the hidden reality of Jesus Christ contained in the Eucharist.

The Eucharist also has a symbolic dimension in the bread and wine. The two are separated as a sign of the blood of Jesus being separated from his body. This points to the death of Jesus on the cross. This part is a symbol only. It doesn't matter if you only receive the cup or only the host, you still receive the whole Jesus. Receiving both is the fullest measure of the sign within the Eucharist.

I hope this helps.

[jdungan7070]

yea there are about 120 of them lol

I dont know if you would consider the 700s the middle ages but I do believe that it is good evidence.

Are you looking for concrete evidence against the antagonists views on the eucharist? Or are you trying to find evidence to convince yourself?

Its really a matter of teaching and faith. You have to thoroughly read the doctrines of these teachings and what the writers of these doctrines though about about the eucharist.

I realize that you would like to debate the matter and come to a
conclusion on this forum and thats great, but you also look at the views of the early christians and the early church fathers. I'm sure the same matter has been debated many times. I'll try to find one for you, but I would to see you look at the link I gave you and get some info on the catholic view of the eucharist. I believe in the real presence one because I respect the authority of my Church and trust that in it's 2000 year existence they have come to a good conclusion on one of the most blessed sacrament. I have also tried to read early church fathers vews, biblical passages, and miracles on the eucharist to confirm my faith.

I also saw that you were from Indiana..I live in muncie. what part of the state are you from?

[jmcrae]

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus

Thank you, JD, and i like those words of Peter, too.

I think that the antagonists of the Eucharists will advise me that the Middle Ages was a particularly violent and sinful time of history. They would counsel me that someone might have replaced the Eucharist with the heart and blood of an executed man.

It's an awfully good resemblance to the Host and Chalice, then.

That being said, i think that what would silence these critics might be more evidence. For example, are there any other instances in history of the same miracle occurring a second time?

There are rumors of it occurring in the present day, I believe in South Korea. There is a woman who claims that every time she receives the Eucharist, it changes to flesh and blood on her tongue. I have seen photographs of this woman standing in a Communion line-up with what appears to be raw bloody meat on her tongue. The meat is reported to be human flesh of the heart, and the blood type of the meat is reported to be the same as that found on the Shroud of Turin and in the Miracle of Lanciano - AB. I don't know if any DNA testing has been done, to see whether the subject is male.

There are of course other miracles as well, but not as well documented, I don't think. The miracle in Korea is currently under investigation.

[Michael Francis]

Over the 1,000 post limit and closed.
MF