People: Inherently good or Inherently evil?

[Tim Kirchoff]

Originally Posted by Dameedna

Man were left to their own Devices for a long time. When people were Nomadic, not much is really known of their behaviour. There were different communities, some patriachal, some matriachal.

There are many people out there, who do not believe, and live very decent lives.There are many people who do believe, and live hideous lives.

And there's everything in between.

In my view, humankind has only ever been doing things on our own.

So if you want an answer to that, you only need to look around. Some of it is good, and some of it is bad, but regardless of where the world is at right now...This world we live in is, humans, left to their own devices.

We've alway's had free will

I suspect your question however, may be more related to, what if no-one believed in a higher power? Is that what you might be driving at?

Not quite, I was thinking more along the lnes of being free from the devil's influence as well as God's Wihout either God's or the devil's influence, how would man act? How good or bad would he be?

[Gottle of Geer]

## Jesus calls his hearers evil:

• Matthew 7:11
  If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
  Matthew 7:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

• Luke 11:13
  If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
  Luke 11:12-14 (in Context) Luke 11 (Whole Chapter)

IMHO it is much much safer to avoid treating man as inherently good, because in actuality man has all too often shown himself to be a devil incarnate - & still does. Doctrines which glorify man never seem to take sin with sufficient seriousness - but if we underestimate the enormity of sin, how can we have a right appreciation of what has been done for us in Christ ? Talk of the inherent goodness of man does not take account of the gigantic numbers slaughtered by the all too human tyrants of this century, or of the roots in us of the same ability to do gigantic harm.

A notion of man that emphasises his desperate wickedness & universal corruption (for the entirety of man has been dealt a deadly blow - the whole of him is sick) is a doctrine that should help to protect those who believe it against putting trust in the split & broken reed that is man - those who overlook the poison in this viper's fangs, by contrast, are in serious danger of being bitten by it. It is God, alone, Who is Good - the gospel says nothing about man (!) being good. Man is evil, not good - that is why he needs salvation from sin, & why he is certain to die in his sins and be damned without a Saviour.

• Mark 10:18
  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
  Mark 10:17-19 (in Context) Mark 10 (Whole Chapter)

• Luke 18:19
  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
  Luke 18:18-20 (in Context) Luke 18 (Whole Chapter)

http://www.biblegateway.com

[Other Eric]

Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer

## Jesus calls his hearers evil:

• Matthew 7:11
  If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
  Matthew 7:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)

• Luke 11:13
  If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
  Luke 11:12-14 (in Context) Luke 11 (Whole Chapter)

IMHO it is much much safer to avoid treating man as inherently good, because in actuality man has all too often shown himself to be a devil incarnate - & still does. Doctrines which glorify man never seem to take sin with sufficient seriousness - but if we underestimate the enormity of sin, how can we have a right appreciation of what has been done for us in Christ ? Talk of the inherent goodness of man does not take account of the gigantic numbers slaughtered by the all too human tyrants of this century, or of the roots in us of the same ability to do gigantic harm.

A notion of man that emphasises his desperate wickedness & universal corruption (for the entirety of man has been dealt a deadly blow - the whole of him is sick) is a doctrine that should help to protect those who believe it against putting trust in the split & broken reed that is man - those who overlook the poison in this viper's fangs, by contrast, are in serious danger of being bitten by it. It is God, alone, Who is Good - the gospel says nothing about man (!) being good. Man is evil, not good - that is why he needs salvation from sin, & why he is certain to die in his sins and be damned without a Saviour.

• Mark 10:18
  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
  Mark 10:17-19 (in Context) Mark 10 (Whole Chapter)

• Luke 18:19
  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
  Luke 18:18-20 (in Context) Luke 18 (Whole Chapter)

http://www.biblegateway.com

The concept of man as inherently evil is one that ultimately turns Christian morality on its head. If man is inherently evil, that is, evil as a constitutional fact of his created identity, then logically, you must deny the Resurrection since, in that case, man would not be worth saving. To hold to the inherent evil of man is to embrace a pagan ethic, not a Christian one.

[Mystic of God]

Would God create something intrinsically evil?

Many Protestants believe that man is, by nature sinful. This is absurd. Did not God see that "it was good"?

Man's concupiscence rises from legitimate desires and pleasures. These are then convoluted, and we have sin. Thus, man is not inherently evil, rather, since God created us with desires, concupiscence blurs our vision.

[DCD]

Originally Posted by Mystic of God

Would God create something intrinsically evil?

Many Protestants believe that man is, by nature sinful. This is absurd. Did not God see that "it was good"?

Man's concupiscence rises from legitimate desires and pleasures. These are then convoluted, and we have sin. Thus, man is not inherently evil, rather, since God created us with desires, concupiscence blurs our vision.

Bravo

The "intrinsically evil" belief has it roots I believe in Manichaeism. God cannot create evil. Evil is the absence of good. True freedom is the ability to choose correctly without coercion. Evil is turning away from the Creator.

Peace,
DCD

[Corey Santos]

Personally I believe that God is the best judge of our human nature. He has spoken on this issue: Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

We also see Paul explain in Romans that we are all born into sin, or "sold" into it. While God's original creation (Adam) was created perfect, it has changed, become corrupt, and is the whole reason Jesus came to save us.

"There is none righteous, no not one...They are all gone out of the way...there is none that doeth good, no not one.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

[Mark & Marilyn]

Not quite. St. Teresa of the Holy Infant Jesus (if I've got the name accurately) led a blameless life, but said on her deathbed,"There is no way I can ultimately be perfect in the eyes of God in my lifetime." ...but she clearly meant nobody is perfect or sinless. The above quotes can be misconstrued as claiming that everyone is hopelessly and incorrigibly evil, or beyond God's reach. Not so.

[JTBT]

Originally Posted by James_2:24

I was in a discussion with a co-worker who believes people are inherently evil and I argued that people are inherently good.

it looks like your co-worker is argueing for the calvinist idea of Total Depravity. and to that I would say that we are Inherently fallen, but that it does follow that we inherently evil because we are made in the image of God, and anything that is made in his image cannot be Totally Depraved (because the image of God is good). it would probably be good if you did some research into the 5 points of Calvinism because you are arguing against the 1 point.

[Corey Santos]

Originally Posted by Mark & Marilyn

Not quite. St. Teresa of the Holy Infant Jesus (if I've got the name accurately) led a blameless life, but said on her deathbed,"There is no way I can ultimately be perfect in the eyes of God in my lifetime." ...but she clearly meant nobody is perfect or sinless. The above quotes can be misconstrued as claiming that everyone is hopelessly and incorrigibly evil, or beyond God's reach. Not so.

Actually - no one leads a blameless life. I think the confusion comes in when we fail to see that sin comes in two forms. The first form is that of an action. A person can commit a sin such as murder or adultery. The other kind of sin is the sin of condition. We are all born into (if we are to believe Paul) a condition of sin that we have no control over. This condition is the reason Christ came to die for us because we are ultimately unable to free ourselves from this state of corruption. This is why nobody is perfect or sinless.

Being "hopelessly and incorrigibly evil", and being "beyond God's reach" are two different issues. I believe people are basically evil in the eyes of God, and this is why His son was sacrificed for us. We cannot stand in His presence without Christ standing in between.

However, even though we are hopeless in God's eyes, we are not "without hope", because He has made provision for us through His Son Jesus Christ.

It's pretty simple really.

[neat62]

Originally Posted by Corey Santos

Actually - no one leads a blameless life. I think the confusion comes in when we fail to see that sin comes in two forms. The first form is that of an action. A person can commit a sin such as murder or adultery. The other kind of sin is the sin of condition. We are all born into (if we are to believe Paul) a condition of sin that we have no control over. This condition is the reason Christ came to die for us because we are ultimately unable to free ourselves from this state of corruption. This is why nobody is perfect or sinless.

Being "hopelessly and incorrigibly evil", and being "beyond God's reach" are two different issues. I believe people are basically evil in the eyes of God, and this is why His son was sacrificed for us. We cannot stand in His presence without Christ standing in between.

However, even though we are hopeless in God's eyes, we are not "without hope", because He has made provision for us through His Son Jesus Christ.

It's pretty simple really.

I have to disagree...simply because what you are saying essentially is saying that God, the creator of ALL life, creates us to be evil. That He actually creates evil...which He, who is complete Truth, complete Love and complete Mercy, is totally incapable of doing.

God has no part of sin...it is why Christ yelled out while on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"...because at that moment, God had to leave Christ to fall to sin...and He, God, could not be present, as He is complete Truth and unable to commit sin or be near it.

As such, God would not create us to be sinful creatures...He created for Himself...so that we will come to love, honor and worship Him forever...He would then, not desire nor design us to be "evil" in anyway! We choose to be evil...all on our own!


Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

[Corey Santos]

Originally Posted by JTBT

it looks like your co-worker is argueing for the calvinist idea of Total Depravity. and to that I would say that we are Inherently fallen, but that it does follow that we inherently evil because we are made in the image of God, and anything that is made in his image cannot be Totally Depraved (because the image of God is good). it would probably be good if you did some research into the 5 points of Calvinism because you are arguing against the 1 point.

It is not true that what ever God makes is good, because God Himself said, after he had created Adam, that it was "not good" that Adam be alone. This makes my point. After Adam was created, but before Eve came along, a "condition" existed that was "not good". That condition was the condition of being alone that Adam suffered.

In the same way, we are born into another condition that is "not good" the condition of sin. If it were good in any way, there would have been no need for Christ to sacrifice Himself for us, because it would have just been a matter of embracing the Holy Spirit to empower us to "be good" for God.

No; the claim that people are inherently good because God originally created us in His image fails to take into account that we no longer live in the Garden, but in a sinful world. That is why the Bible calls a spade a spade and notes (as I pointed out above) that no one is good.

[Corey Santos]

Originally Posted by neat62

I have to disagree...simply because what you are saying essentially is saying that God, the creator of ALL life, creates us to be evil. That He actually creates evil...which He, who is complete Truth, complete Love and complete Mercy, is totally incapable of doing.

God has no part of sin...it is why Christ yelled out while on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"...because at that moment, God had to leave Christ to fall to sin...and He, God, could not be present, as He is complete Truth and unable to commit sin or be near it.

As such, God would not create us to be sinful creatures...He created for Himself...so that we will come to love, honor and worship Him forever...He would then, not desire nor design us to be "evil" in anyway! We choose to be evil...all on our own!


Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

No - Evil is not a "thing" to be created. Evil is the absence of good. It's the separation of man from God. In the absence of God, we find evil. Evil is not created by God, but by man in the sense that when man made a free moral choice to disobey God, he created a condition of separation from God, and in this we find evil. Paul said the world and everything in it is in separation from God, and therefore is inherently evil. We fight everyday to please God, struggling against what we know we should do, and what we are really doing. If we were basically good, then the task would be a lot easier, and might even be something we could achieve on our own, but we can't. This is why God sent His Son, to take on the sins and sinful nature that you and I have no power to free ourselves from.

You're correct when you say God doesn't create evil. You're also correct when you say He didn't create us to be evil. We chose to come to know what evil is, and that is far different than God "creating" evil. It's the fact that God cannot be in the presence of sin that we need Christ to stand in the gap for our trespasses against God.

[JTBT]

Originally Posted by Corey Santos

It is not true that what ever God makes is good, because God Himself said, after he had created Adam, that it was "not good" that Adam be alone. This makes my point. After Adam was created, but before Eve came along, a "condition" existed that was "not good". That condition was the condition of being alone that Adam suffered.

In the same way, we are born into another condition that is "not good" the condition of sin. If it were good in any way, there would have been no need for Christ to sacrifice Himself for us, because it would have just been a matter of embracing the Holy Spirit to empower us to "be good" for God.

No; the claim that people are inherently good because God originally created us in His image fails to take into account that we no longer live in the Garden, but in a sinful world. That is why the Bible calls a spade a spade and notes (as I pointed out above) that no one is good.

I did not say that everyone is good I said that we are all Inherently fallen, but I do not agree that we are Inherently evil.

[JTBT]

Originally Posted by Corey Santos

No - Evil is not a "thing" to be created. Evil is the absence of good.

Evil is not the absence of good.
Evil is the perversion of good, evil has to have good things to pervert in order to exist.

[bogeydogg]

Not to be a Calvinist or anything here, because I'm not, but Calvin never taught Total Depravity. That doctrine of Protestant Faith was concocted after his death in reply to the followers of Arminius during the Remonstrance.

Calvin affirmed what St. Augustine taught that man is helpless because of his sin nature. It is not that man can do no good, such an idea is ridiculous, it is that man cannot save himself. The notion of total depravity is flawed because no one is totally depraved, even Hitler had a dog who liked him. No one is as bad as they can possibly all the time every time. Well, no one human anyway.