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Jun 8, '04, 10:03 pm
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Administrator
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Join Date: April 23, 2004
Posts: 11,296
Religion: Catholic
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Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
Karl's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
TOPICS:
A T-Shirt No-No
Church-goers' Voting Habits
A Cardinal Error
Truth in Advertising, But Not This Election
Truth Online: At The Catholic Answers Forums
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http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_040608.asp
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Jun 9, '04, 12:40 am
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Forum Supporter
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Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,219
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
As an Australian, I often hear how America is the land of the free.
You're Constitution seems to be in every movie and TV show. I often hear the 1st amendment quoted for freedom of speech, and the 5th amendment quoted for staying silent on grounds you may be incriminated. (please correct me if I am wrong)
Americans seem to be so patriotic, and I am so amazed at the power of your national anthem, the Star Spangled Banner. To see how well you all know the words, and how you take your caps off, and place your hand over your heart is truly inspiring.
This forum has opened my eyes as to how sadly though American society has become.
You all seem so upset by "abuses" in church, "abuses" by priests, and "abuses" by your schools.
I was shocked when I read Karl's e-letter to hear of Tyler Harper being suspended for wearing a t-shirt to his high school during Silent Day, a day that is "to recognize and protest discrimination and harassment against gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender students," .
Tyler wore a t-shirt saying "I Will Not Accept What God Has Condemned," and on the back it read "Homosexuality is Shameful, Romans 1:27."
I applaud him !
At only 16, he is willing to spread the Word, and be persecuted for it.
Jesus was persecuted.
What has happened to society? Free speech? Rights?
Are we getting nearer the 2nd Coming? As it seems to me that Satan is working harder than ever before to pull us away from God, as if Satan knows God is coming soon for us.
I would like to hear more of what happens to Tyler, and what the newspapers over there are reporting.
I cannot believe so many people are against the teachings of Our Lord.
Keep up the good work Karl with your e-letters.
Love Kellie
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Jun 9, '04, 4:27 am
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Join Date: June 5, 2004
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
I have to admit that as an intellectual matter, I am watching with an awful fascination the conflict over the reception of communion by politicians who publicly support abortion. This appears to be an issue that seemingly can't be avoided.
The issue, of course, is public scandal. By receiving Holy Communion, a public figure makes a very public statement that is finally impossible to ignore. Some bishops have decided to join the issue and act on the unavoidable by denying the sacrament.
Other bishops, anxious to avoid direct confrontation, are still trying to diplomatically get around the obvious. but their reasoning is unsatisfactory, legalistic sophistry, and everybody knows it. The Church has elevated abortion to the worst of sins against which all others pale in comparison. Catholic Pro-Life Activists have fought the good fight untiringly for over thirty years; the issue is clear; there has been no retreat.
The battle over artificial contraception has not gone well. It seems to be accepted that great numbers of Catholic women use artificial contraception and have been doing so for decades now. If you doubt this go to Mass at about any church and see how many large families you see. And, if you see one, pay attention to the whispered comments.
At the end of the day the Church just can't give in on abortion. The Church crossed the Rubicon a long, long time ago on this issue.
At the same time, politicians know that they have to get elected to office. Principles are fine things, indeed, but unless you can win the election you can't do anything and, worse yet, you don't get paid! Politicians who allow their principles to overcome expediency usually find themselves pidgeonholed as nuts and lose.
Democrats have largely committed to personal freedom with regard to contraception. They fear a retreat on this issue would cost them a lot of pro-abortion voters. They are probably right; it is their job to know these things. So, they can't retreat either. Imagine the reaction if John Kerry were to announce today that he is abandoning his support of contraception, that he is reconciling with the Church, and that upon his election to office he will take steps to outlaw all forms of contraception in the United States starting with shutting down all abortion clinics immediately.
This is the classic example of the irresistable force meeting the immovable object. It appears to me there is no honorable way out. All we can do is watch and see what happens.
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Jun 9, '04, 4:45 am
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Join Date: June 5, 2004
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
I have to say that I am inclined to disagree with your statements about public education. I have been enrolled in the public education system throught my entire education, I am not a senior in high school, and while the moral teaching is decidedly not present, the academic teaching is. At my school, our standardized test scores are almost always higher than the 2 private schools that are near our location. Additionally, I would not say that the staff is devoid of conscience, as when I wear anti-abortion/pro-life shirts I get numerous compliments, and I was even able to get some of my teachers to wear some pro-life pins on the grounds that it was a stance on a political issue, given that this is election season.
Additionally, in Bio II, which teaches a unit on human sexuality, the teacher is a baptist woman, and she doesn't shy away from telling us that abstinence is the only thing that she expects us to use when regulating pregnancy at our age, unfortunately, she does feel the need to go through all the different methods of contraception for "academic purposes." In my English class this year, we studied American Literature, and we went through the different periods of American literature begining with Puritans, and ending up in post-modern. At the end of the year, we were supposed to be able to identify each time period by three criteria, how the society regarded: God, Individual, Nature. Due to the nature of this, we discussed God, and religion many times, in fact, that is the only things we did for nearly 3 weeks of the Puritan era. For what it is worth, my English teacher has a doctorate in her field, and I think it is unfair to say that the public education system is a lost cause because, of my part, I feel that I have received an excellent education.
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Jun 9, '04, 6:33 am
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Observing Member
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Join Date: June 8, 2004
Posts: 4
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
Karl—
I couldn't agree with you more about the problems of moral relativism in public schools, and yes, there are lots of social problems in school (and society) that didn't exit 30 or 40 years ago. But the social science data don’t support your claim that as morals have declined, so, too, has academic achievement. Contrary to the perception of the many, U.S. academic achievement had been stable or rising for at least 3 decades, if not more.
There have been several academic studies published to support this conclusion. I refer you to David Berliner and Bruce Biddle’s The Manufactured Crisis (1996), Setting the Record Straight by Gerald Bracey (1997), and the first chapter of my own humble contribution to the literature, The Literacy Crisis, published by Heinemann in 1997. That chapter is available on-line on the publisher’s website (in case you think this letter is really just an ad for my book!). Here’s the link:
http://www.heinemann.com/shared/onli...63/7myths.html
Charles Murray (hardly a left-wing, public education-loving sort of guy) published an article in Public Interest in 1992 that came essentially to the same conclusion. Richard Rothstein’s analysis for American Prospect also reviews the relevant data, and comes to the same finding. His article is available here:
http://www.prospect.org/print/V4/13/rothstein-r.html
Anyone who visits a public library and looks at the annual publication of the Department of Education on educational statistics will learn that:
- Standardized reading test scores have been stable or climbing among all ages tested by the “Nation’s Report Card,” the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), since the test was first administered in 1971.
- Math test scores on the NAEP have also been stable or rising since 1971.
- SAT scores have been stable or rising since 1975. The great ‘decline’ in SAT scores you’ve read about took place from 1963 to 1975, was rather modest, and can be explained mostly by the dramatic increase in college enrollments in that period. (To those readers who took the exam between 1963 and 1975, well, you know who to blame for your generation's poor showing.)
- U.S. students rank 2nd in the world in reading among 31 countries tested in an international survey in 1992. (Finland is #1, mostly because they have an incredible public & school library system—lots of books = lots of reading. Our state, California, has the worst public and school library system in the country, and consequently the worst test scores.)
I could go on and on. The truth is, people have always complained about how horrible the schools are. Harvard University instituted the first freshmen composition classes in the 1890’s over concern about the declining quality of student writing! It's no surprise that when I ask people what year education started declining in the U.S., I always get the same answer: the year they graduated from high school. Things always seemed better in the Good Old Days.
That’s not to say that all is just fine and dandy in our schools. It isn’t, especially in large urban districts like San Diego Unified, Los Angeles Unified, or any number of inner-city districts, especially in large states such as California. None of this excuses the outrageous behavior of Poway High’s administration, but let’s separate the real issues (moral confusion) from the imaginary ones (academic decline).
Yours,
Jeff McQuillan
Last edited by Administrator; Jun 10, '04 at 7:03 pm.
Reason: formatting
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Jun 9, '04, 7:13 am
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Join Date: June 2, 2004
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
Cardinals Mahony and McCarrick, other Cardinals and Bishops of similar perspective, are more interested in being politically correct and maintaining their influential connections, than requiring that the teachings of the Church be obeyed by all Roman Catholics where ever they reside or status. Discipline and obedience to Church Teachings by clergy, religious, and laity ,need to be restored.Otherwise, we as a Church are on a collision course for disaster.The current ecclesiastical anarchy and permissiveness in the Roman Catholic Church, in the U.S., cannot continue.
Robert Novak is correct concerning Cardinal McCarrick, as were the comments of the Priest, that he spoke with, concerning the Protestanism of liberal Catholics in the U.S. My view is, that it was an understatement.I heard an elderly priest not too long ago, predict a schism, where there will be an American Catholic Church similar to the Episcopal Church, and a traditional Roman Catholic Church.Unless there is a dramatic shift in direction and leadership, that prediction could very well materailize.
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Jun 9, '04, 7:16 am
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Join Date: May 19, 2004
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
Pauljmaxmi and Marvista replies are encouraging and seem to me to be correct.
We are educating our kids better over the past decade. Overall, raising the standards and setting minimum requirements has been working.
Our kids are getting smarter in regards to book learning.
What I agree about Karl's email is the seemingly decline in teaching morals and ethics.
Can schools teach this? Maybe.
In today's environment? Probably not.
Should the schools be held responsible for this?
Or should the parents?
Is private/catholic school the answer?
Do you maybe send your kids to a private/catholic school where the education standards might be a bit lower, but the moral example/learning opportunity greater?
Or do you send them to a public school where they might learn more, but are exposed to more "less than desirable" conduct and where this behavior is accepted.
In either case, parental involvement has to be part of the solution.
That, along with having some sort of consistent, morally upstanding Authoritative-figure that they can look up to is what we should be looking at.
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Jun 9, '04, 7:44 am
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
Believe it or not, Karl, today's high school students are expected to meet standards that are much higher than those expected of your generation. Not only is Shakespeare still taught, but the literary analysis required of the students is closer to what you probably faced in college.
At my public high school, several students each year not only take Advanced Placement Calculas and English, but pass the AP exams to earn college credit for these courses. 85% or our graduating class this year will go to college in the fall and 12% will attend a technical school. 88% of our students receiving special education services met the standards for a regular high school diploma. Our students are well prepared for, are accepted into, and thrive in the most prestigious universities in the country.
This has been accomplished by the unbelievable dedication of the teaching staff. These professionals donate countless hours to ensure their students reach the standards. The "budget" for the math department at our high school last year was $250. First semester Calculas was taught without textbooks. English 11 and 12 got the same. This did not prevent one of last years seniors from having her poetry published. The teachers have not had a pay raise in several years. Next year, our health benefits will be reduced.
To decide on principle to vote against any and all school bond issues is more than short sighted, it is self destructive. The public school system, as flawed as it is, is the only option for the vast majority of children in our country. To fail to support it will not make it go away, for there is nothing to replace it. Lack of support will only make it harder on those of us who dedicate our very lives to educating future generations.
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Jun 9, '04, 9:00 am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 117
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
The main problem with ideology replacing true education comes from the unions. I still don't understand why the NEA decided they needed to take political stands on moral issues. Are teachers unions too much of a juggernaught to be changed? That may well be, and then Karl scores a point. However, the problem of low academic standards is everywhere.
I am a teacher in a Catholic school and I have been struggling to increase our academic standards. While we consistently perform on par or even better than the public school on standardized tests, we are still missing the deeper intellectual standards that I think we should be teaching.
As previous posts pointed out, Shakespeare and Milton are still read. However, they are only read in the Advanced Placement course in our school (I believe it is the same at our public school). This course is taken during the senior year. Karl pointed out that in the past students were reading these great authors in the sixth grade! Why are we unable to reproduce this level of achievement? I do agree that the level of analysis required by our students is very high. However, our ability to teach deep analysis is too often hindered by a lack in comprehension skills.
I strongly believe that one of the main problems is that too many teachers have lowered their expectations of what students can read. They hear from their students, "I hate reading" and they resign themselves to the fact that students would rather watch TV and play video games. This sells students short. We need to learn to ignore the whining and to demand more of our students.
I'm not sure that public education is a lost cause. Catholic schools seemed that way a decade ago, but we're making a come-back. I think public educators may yet do the same. However, Catholic schools also need to reclaim their identity as Catholic schools - reclaiming with it the Catholic intellectual tradition that I believe essentially sets us above public education. This may prove difficult in the face of an anti-intellectual culture, but we are on our way!
__________________
Jeff Arrowood
From the Abbey
Catholic moral theology for every Catholic

www.fromtheabbey.com
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Jun 9, '04, 9:18 am
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President, Catholic Answers
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Join Date: April 1, 2004
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Religion: Catholic, of course
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
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Originally Posted by ghostranch
Believe it or not, Karl, today's high school students are expected to meet standards that are much higher than those expected of your generation. Not only is Shakespeare still taught, but the literary analysis required of the students is closer to what you probably faced in college.
At my public high school, several students each year not only take Advanced Placement Calculas and English, but pass the AP exams to earn college credit for these courses. 85% or our graduating class this year will go to college in the fall and 12% will attend a technical school. 88% of our students receiving special education services met the standards for a regular high school diploma. Our students are well prepared for, are accepted into, and thrive in the most prestigious universities in the country.
To decide on principle to vote against any and all school bond issues is more than short sighted, it is self destructive. The public school system, as flawed as it is, is the only option for the vast majority of children in our country. To fail to support it will not make it go away, for there is nothing to replace it. Lack of support will only make it harder on those of us who dedicate our very lives to educating future generations.
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What you say in your first paragraph doesn't reach the standards that my high school had in the late sixties. We had lots of students in advanced placement classes, and not just calculus and English.
I still maintain that the public school system is so corrupted, both morally and intellectually, that it probably can't be repaired. I see no reason to throw good money after bad. I do think there is something to replace it--in fact, more than one something.
For those so inclined, there is home schooling. Beyond that is private schooling, which is where I think the real solution lies. (Marva Collins, where are you?) Of course, a good portion of the private schooling would be done by parochial schools.
I'd favor tax credits (not vouchers) to encourage private alternatives, and I'd like to see those alternatives not shackled by government regulations. (I trust parents more than I trust bureaucrats.)
__________________
Karl
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Jun 9, '04, 10:14 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2004
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
Hey Karl,
The best solution to the problem of public schools: Catholic Schools. I hear there are a few good ones left, like St. Michael's Preparatory School in Orange, CA.
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Jun 9, '04, 11:02 am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: June 2, 2004
Posts: 258
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
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Finally, let me make a small adjustment to the unnamed priest's comment: I would put "liberal" or "mainline" before "Protestants," because the religion espoused by pro-abortion Catholic politicians is quite different from the Protestantism held by Evangelicals.
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Thanks.
Intellectually, I understand the principle that "one who dissents from Catholic teaching is a Protestant." I still cringe, however, when I hear Catholic rhetoric that lumps the pro-aborts in with us.
I think I speak for most evangelicals when I say I would rather be in a foxhole with a devout Catholic than with a (theologically) liberal Protestant. A fundie wouldn't trust either one (!) but mainline evangelicals recognize our allies in the culture wars.
-C
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Jun 9, '04, 12:28 pm
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
Karl: There is a directive in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says Catholics should send their children to Catholic Schools, is there not? Albeit, at this time there are not enough Catholic Schools - none in some cities and towns. And, parents for the most part, have a hard time coming up with the tuition. Also, from what I remember reading in the CCC, parishes are supposed to provide for those families that do not have the tuition. Instead of parishes finding ways to support Catholic Schools, more and more are being closed. I taught in Catholic schools for more than thirty years, am proud of it, and found that the level of education was better than any of the surrounding public schools available at that time. I may be rembling a little, but I concur with you that public education falls far from the mark, and for the most part, does nothing to raise the moral standards of our young people. Like you, I do not vote for educational bond issues. At times, I wish,(even pray), that I could find a way, like some of the Saints of old, to establish free Catholic education for children.
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Jun 9, '04, 2:49 pm
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
There is a danger when painting with a broad brush re. public education. I am a Catholic science teacher in a public school i n a very liberal town - I wear a crucifix and a rosary bracelet and exhibit my faith in many small ways every day. I truly believe that I can be an example of Christ's love in the setting of the public school. I see many teachers of many different faiths in the school including evangelicals and orthodox jews working with students of many faiths. God is present within us, even though we are not allowed by law to pray together. My students can see the love of Christ in me and I can see Christ in each of them and it is joyful.
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Jun 9, '04, 3:24 pm
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Join Date: June 3, 2004
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Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 8, 2004
Has anyone heard of the Geneva School www.genevaschool.org . It's a Christian school which is designed to return to the classical education and teaching methods which were used before our schools embraced existentialism. I personally do not know much about education theory, but have always been impressed and somewhat envious of the type of education kids seem to have recieved in the boarding schools in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I am interested in other's opinions of this school in particular and in thier teaching ideology.
God Bless,
Ken
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