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  #1  
Old Nov 16, '04, 10:17 am
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Default Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Karl's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

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Christians Have No Guarantee Of Heaven
==========
http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041116.asp
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  #2  
Old Nov 16, '04, 1:21 pm
DaveBj DaveBj is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Quote:
In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul says, "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." Even the apostle battled earthly temptations lest he succumb to them and lose heaven.
Nit-picking--it's "pummel," not "pommel." "Pommel" is part of a horse saddle. This is about the 3rd or 4th time I've seen that mistake on these forums.

Nevertheless, a very excellent e-letter, on a subject that has been on my mind frequently lately.

And there are OSASers who would argue that yes, the minister would go to heaven, in spite of all the evil he did during the last moments of his life.

While I do embrace the Catholic teaching on this subject, I still believe that God will give me the grace of final perseverance, because I have always felt him strongly drawing me to Himself. Nevertheless, I recognize that I must cooperate with that drawing, if I want to enjoy the benefits of spending eternity in the presence of God, His angels, and His saints. He calls, and I answer the call and run towards Him, in the grace that He gives me. Nothing else makes sense.

DaveBj
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  #3  
Old Nov 16, '04, 1:28 pm
Dunmoose Dunmoose is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

That was exactly the reasoning I used as an OSAS person. I did not think through the implications of that belief, obviously.
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Old Nov 16, '04, 1:36 pm
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Shoshana Shoshana is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

This is so great! I wonder if I gave this newsletter to my born-again fundamentalist brother, that it would be considered ammunition? He only had criticisms about Scott Hanhn's book...'Home to Rome'. What would he do to this???


Oh never mind....his mind is so closed to anything catholic. Let another one be used by God outside of the family....

Thank you Karl for this write-up. I do get a lot from you both from Catholci Radio 101.7 and these forums. May the Lord continue to bless you....

Blessings,
Shoshana
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Old Nov 16, '04, 1:51 pm
jjen009 jjen009 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBj
Nit-picking--it's "pummel," not "pommel." "Pommel" is part of a horse saddle. This is about the 3rd or 4th time I've seen that mistake on these forums.

[snip]

FWIW, OED lists both - and derives 'pummel' etymologically from 'pommel'

DaveBj
  #6  
Old Nov 16, '04, 2:29 pm
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBj
Nit-picking--it's "pummel," not "pommel." "Pommel" is part of a horse saddle. This is about the 3rd or 4th time I've seen that mistake on these forums.
1. The RSV-CE uses "pommel" instead of "pummel."

2. Webster's gives "pommel" as a variant spelling of "pummel."

3. When used as a noun, "pommel" means the knob on the front of a saddle. In the E-Letter "pommel" was used as a verb, not a noun.

4. Maybe in those other 2 or 3 instances the word "pommel" was used correctly, as I used it correctly.
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Old Nov 16, '04, 2:39 pm
DaveBj DaveBj is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Keating
1. The RSV-CE uses "pommel" instead of "pummel."

2. Webster's gives "pommel" as a variant spelling of "pummel."

3. When used as a noun, "pommel" means the knob on the front of a saddle. In the E-Letter "pommel" was used as a verb, not a noun.

4. Maybe in those other 2 or 3 instances the word "pommel" was used correctly, as I used it correctly.
Okay, my dictionary didn't have that variation, only the saddle definition and one referring to the knob at the end of a sword hilt. I should have checked my 1971 Oxford English Dictionary; it did have it that definition.

*looking for white-flag-waving smiley*

It's still a superb e-letter.

DaveBj
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Old Nov 16, '04, 3:20 pm
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Good letter. I find it hard to believe any thinking person would subscribe to the "once saved always saved", but I am continually surprised by who believes this. It is important to remember, though, that not all "Fundamentalists" believe this. The Nazarene Church, for example, addresses this particular issue and appears to be more in-line with Catholic doctrine on this belief. I believe the Free Methodist denomination also does not hold to this "once saved always saved", but I was surprised by a Free Methodist friend who said he believed in something pretty close to this doctrine. Keep in mind that this Calvinistic belief is not present in all Fundamentalist denominations. Catholics frequently don't understand the distinctions between the various Protestant denominations at even the most basic levels. We just need avoid being too broad in our generalizations. All things taken into account, though, I liked the latest letter!
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  #9  
Old Nov 16, '04, 4:10 pm
Lamb100 Lamb100 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Loved your article, Karl, and I may keep it--it's great--as far as it goes--let me explain...

I was raised Presbyterian and for awhile was Lutheran (both mainline), and we didn't believe in OSAS. *Technically*, Presbyterians believe in predestination, but it was sort of an embarrassment and never discussed. We were suburban, middle-class, rather high-church, sacramental. In midlife, I became discouraged with the loss of faith in those denominations and almost joined a Baptist church, because they still talked about Jesus as Savior, didn't quibble about what the Resurrection really meant, etc. Also, they read the Bible without taking things out of context--in my opinion, considering fundamentalist beliefs, they did a pretty good job--and respected God for who He is, without trying to explain away miracles. In other words, when I first started attending Bible studies, I had a very superior attitude toward them, but they really earned my respect. They opened Scripture to me, then God converted me to the Catholic faith because of the Eucharist (with a lot of help from Scott Hahn and Patrick Madrid). Needless to say, this past year as a Catholic has been a major reality check. Sometimes if it weren't for the Eucharist, I might go back to the Baptist church.

All this is to say--go easy on the OSASers! I think sometimes we remain in the intellect and disregard matters of the heart. *So* many people see a judgmental, angry God and not a God who loved us to His death. I have to say, this area of justification still remains a confusing point to me....if people err on the side of OSAS, or universalism (which is not the same, but comes out of the same yearning for God's forgiveness)--it's coming out of the recognition of God's *incredible* mercy which is so great we can't begin to understand it. Somehow, I don't think He wants us to wander in confusion about our salvation, to the point of worrying so much about it (as I tend to do). I mean, I hear what you're saying, Karl, and it makes total sense, but something in my heart really responded to OSAS. In apologetics, somehow we have to reach that inner fear in people--otherwise they will see us as a legalistic church. And there are *so* many, many verses that seem to support OSAS. Anyway--those verses you gave in Romans are great, and I do believe the Catholic view (as I said, I grew up with it). And most Protestant churches don't believe in OSAS--just a whole lot of them.

I agree, Catholics lump all Protestants together. What makes it even more confusing--get this--the *Evangelical* Lutheran Church is not "evangelical" (i.e., fundamentalist)--it's mainline, influenced by every liberal, skeptical intellectual trend out there.
  #10  
Old Nov 16, '04, 4:17 pm
Lamb100 Lamb100 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

[quote=Writer]Good letter. I find it hard to believe any thinking person would subscribe to the "once saved always saved", but I am continually surprised by who believes this.

And careful...this was the same superior attitude I took into my Baptist Bible study group...God quickly humbled me--and then he showed me His glory...
Two years ago, I would have found it hard to believe any thinking person could believe God would take the form of a piece of bread....once you accept the Incarnation, *anything* is believable. Besides, faith doesn't deny the intellect, but it does require us to submit our intellect completely to God.

The explanation for OSAS is that God seals us with his Holy Spirit when we accept Christ--protects us from ultimately denying him. Those who do deny him were never really saved in the first place (which gets into the whole point Karl made in his letter--it's basically very close to the Catholic view after all, maybe). I personally feel this very strongly within me--God really kept me from rejecting Him; I could feel the inner spiritual warfare, and I came very, very close. So in a sense, I was sort of scared into taking Him seriously--maybe that's not such a bad thing, huh?

Hey--I don't pretend to even begin to understand the mystery of salvation.....but it doesn't stop me from trying and banging my head against the wall...
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Old Nov 16, '04, 8:46 pm
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

I got hung up when you started talking about hope (like sometimes happens in the middle of the homily) and can't think about anything else. What is the purpose of hope if we already are assured of salvation. What is there to hope for? Some ladies had this discussion today: if you are at Home Depot, and your husband points out the tool he wants, should you buy it then, or wait and give it to him for Christmas. If you don't buy it, he has the hope of getting it later. If you do buy, he has the assurance of owning it, even if he doesn't unwrap it until Christmas eve, so where is the fun in that?
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Old Nov 16, '04, 11:43 pm
eddie eddie is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

[font=Verdana]Karl, GREAT e-letter!! I have a couple of family members that are "born-again" and a number of business associates as well. So for the last few years I've been trying to bring them to their senses. Although I have not been able to, I have learned much more about myself and our wonderful gift, the Catholic Faith.

Your Catholic Answers site has had a tremendous influence on my studies. Particularly a book I just finished which your site had recomended, How Not To Share Your Faith Highly recomend it! Every serious Catholic should read this!
Thanks!/FONT]
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Old Nov 17, '04, 7:13 am
bisukol bisukol is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Dear Karl,

Thanks for your E-Letter. I took some bible studies class at a bible church and I had a discussion with the pastor who is our bible class teacher and he believes in OSAS and I don't believe in it. I will try to send this email to him.

Thanks,
Orlando
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Old Nov 17, '04, 7:48 am
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Karl,
Thanks for this e-letter. It was spooky how close your letter was to my discussion with my fundelmentalist brother this weekend. The conversation I had with him was only the second time we have even tried to discuss our religious differences and it is tender area. It helps to know that what I was understanding from his explanation was to the point (and he wasn't) Oh well, evangelize!

Again thanks and keep up the good work.
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Old Nov 17, '04, 9:21 am
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 16, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl
Hope concerns things that are possible but not certain, which is why the saints in heaven no longer have the virtue of hope. They don't need it. Having God, they already have everything, and there is nothing left for them to hope for.
Don't the Saints hope for OUR salvation? I hope so!
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