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  #1  
Old Mar 28, '08, 4:18 pm
vocatio vocatio is offline
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Default Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

Most of the tension I run into seem to be from Proselytizing Orthodox that share so much in common with with us... I see both of us as Catholic and CERTAIN individuals have a tendency to just ger out right rude. Well, I heard the same is true for the Orthodox, from people visiting Divine Liturgy. Priests yelling at people in line for confession? How bazaar. I heard that this is common overseas. And that in the states it's not quite as intense. It borders just plain anti-social behavior. Not the qulaities of a Christian as described in the book of James.

And it's funny how much in denial some of the Orhtodox about certain believes when I've heard it straight from Orthodox priests. For example, primacy and infalibility. That topic was redefined to suit their needs according to what I've read. Sure these are divisions that would take a miricle to remove, but once that is removed, there really isn't much in the way. I believe this is an ancient fight that is based on culture more than faith. If you do research on most of the American Orthodox you will discover that many if not most are former fundamentalist Protestants that hang onto anti-Catholic sentements and once they discovered some basic truths about the early Church they just couldn't admit it was in deed a unified Catholic Church surrounded by heretical movements much like today.

Better post fast, but keep it clean. This is my observation. If you are Protestant looking seriously at Orthodox. What is it that draws you to Orthodox and away from Catholicism?
  #2  
Old Mar 28, '08, 5:10 pm
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Harpazo Harpazo is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vocatio View Post
Most of the tension I run into seem to be from Proselytizing Orthodox that share so much in common with with us... I see both of us as Catholic and CERTAIN individuals have a tendency to just ger out right rude. Well, I heard the same is true for the Orthodox, from people visiting Divine Liturgy. Priests yelling at people in line for confession? How bazaar. I heard that this is common overseas. And that in the states it's not quite as intense. It borders just plain anti-social behavior. Not the qulaities of a Christian as described in the book of James.

And it's funny how much in denial some of the Orhtodox about certain believes when I've heard it straight from Orthodox priests. For example, primacy and infalibility. That topic was redefined to suit their needs according to what I've read. Sure these are divisions that would take a miricle to remove, but once that is removed, there really isn't much in the way. I believe this is an ancient fight that is based on culture more than faith. If you do research on most of the American Orthodox you will discover that many if not most are former fundamentalist Protestants that hang onto anti-Catholic sentements and once they discovered some basic truths about the early Church they just couldn't admit it was in deed a unified Catholic Church surrounded by heretical movements much like today.

Better post fast, but keep it clean. This is my observation. If you are Protestant looking seriously at Orthodox. What is it that draws you to Orthodox and away from Catholicism?
I almost began investigating Eastern Orthodoxy when I had given up spiritually on Protestantism. I did so because my anti-Catholicism that I had carried with me fit very well with it. It was after seeing that there is no central authority and it is not as Catholic as they would like us to believe.

First off, none of the Early Churches were "state-churches" as the Eastern Orthodox churches are in present day. That's a "development." They claim to be against developments not within Apostolic Christianity.

Also, I don't see catholicity in Eastern Orthodoxy, or perhaps we both look at it differently. The Catholic Church is comprised of several Churches that in the post-schism world came back to Rome, and Rome with them. That made me think. But what stops me in my tracks is when they claim to be the Catholic Church. They're not Catholic in the full-sense of the word.

Because the Holy Catholic Church is comprised of 23 Churches, there is diversity in tradition, custom, liturgy, etc. This is true catholicity. We don't have simple the Latin-Rite in all the Churches of the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox have the Byzantine-Rite for all of theirs. I'm not trying to bash the Byzantine-Rite at all. I think it's very beautiful. What bugs me is how Eastern Orthodox will complain about Rome suppressing certain things. When the Eastern Orthodox, in specific, the Greeks, suppressed the Church in Antioch making it just like the Greek Orthodox. I see that sort of thing as hypocritical of the Eastern Orthodox.

God granted me the grace to be able to study, read and learn about the early Church. It was orthodox, but not Eastern. It was Catholic through and through. I've never been happier in my 18 years of life than I am as a Catholic.

Sometimes some Orthodox posters have brought me down by saying rude, polemical and hurtful things by telling us that the fruits of the Catholic Church is Protestantism, but the truth of the matter is that, there have always been heresies and people trying to lead others astray.

Al-Masih Qam!

Andrew
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  #3  
Old Mar 28, '08, 6:50 pm
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

**We don't have simple the Latin-Rite in all the Churches of the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox have the Byzantine-Rite for all of theirs.**

There are Western Rite Orthodox, especially in the Antiochian Archdiocese in this country.
  #4  
Old Mar 28, '08, 6:57 pm
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
**We don't have simple the Latin-Rite in all the Churches of the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox have the Byzantine-Rite for all of theirs.**

There are Western Rite Orthodox, especially in the Antiochian Archdiocese in this country.
This is a recent innovation though. It did not begin as a Church in and of itself, if I'm not mistaken.

I know little of the Western-Rite of Orthodoxy. I think there is a mission in Lynchburg, about 1 hr from me, but I don't think they are within the Antiochene Archdiocese.

Al-Masih Qam!

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew
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  #5  
Old Mar 28, '08, 7:22 pm
ForeverAdam ForeverAdam is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
This is a recent innovation though. It did not begin as a Church in and of itself, if I'm not mistaken.
The Unia was a recent innovation for your Church in the 16th century. And due to the ancient canons of the Orthodox Church we cannot make the Western Rite a "Church" unless we make individual dioceses for them. I think Catholicism allows overlapping episcopal jurisdiction and thus avoids this problem. I also think the presence of the Orthodox Western Rite (in both its ROCOR and Antiochian varieties) shows that our Church is Catholic in its consciousness.

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I know little of the Western-Rite of Orthodoxy. I think there is a mission in Lynchburg, about 1 hr from me, but I don't think they are within the Antiochene Archdiocese.
Holy Trinity Mission in Lynchburg is of the Antiochian Archdiocese.

God bless,

Adam
  #6  
Old Mar 28, '08, 7:47 pm
wynd wynd is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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Originally Posted by vocatio View Post
If you do research on most of the American Orthodox you will discover that many if not most are former fundamentalist Protestants that hang onto anti-Catholic sentements and once they discovered some basic truths about the early Church they just couldn't admit it was in deed a unified Catholic Church surrounded by heretical movements much like today.
I'd like to see your research that backs this up. My experience has been just the opposite -- I've found the Catholics I've met in real life to be much more anti-Orthodox than the other way around. Of the Orthodox I have and do converse with, Catholicsm is usually not even mentioned at all.

But what's the point of that? Any good Catholic should know that the misdeeds of the members of a religion don't make that religion false.
  #7  
Old Mar 28, '08, 8:16 pm
josephdaniel29 josephdaniel29 is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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Originally Posted by vocatio View Post
And it's funny how much in denial some of the Orhtodox about certain believes when I've heard it straight from Orthodox priests. For example, primacy and infalibility. That topic was redefined to suit their needs according to what I've read.
Pray tell where in the world did you hear that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vocatio View Post
If you do research on most of the American Orthodox you will discover that many if not most are former fundamentalist Protestants that hang onto anti-Catholic sentements and once they discovered some basic truths about the early Church they just couldn't admit it was in deed a unified Catholic Church surrounded by heretical movements much like today.
That's a common tactic. Brand American Orthodox as anti-Catholic bigots and you don't have to actually answer their arguments. Can you please cite the study that shows most American Orthodox are former "anti-Catholics". You guys are so sure of yourselves that you can't imagine someone looking at the historical facts and coming to any conclusion other than the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church. So if a person doesn't come to that conclusion the only plausible explanation is that person must be a former Fundamentalist anti-Catholic bigot.


Yours in Christ
Joe
  #8  
Old Mar 29, '08, 3:26 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

Hello Harpazo,

A most interesting post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
I almost began investigating Eastern Orthodoxy when I had given up spiritually on Protestantism. I did so because my anti-Catholicism that I had carried with me fit very well with it. It was after seeing that there is no central authority and it is not as Catholic as they would like us to believe.
I reads to me like you traded anti-Catholicism for anti-Orthodoxy. Big swings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
First off, none of the Early Churches were "state-churches" as the Eastern Orthodox churches are in present day. That's a "development." They claim to be against developments not within Apostolic Christianity.
We resist development of doctrine, that is a natural result of an apophatic theological outlook.

The church will continually react to change in circumstances following principles laid out for us very early. The form of organization does not chnge, but it will grow geographically to encompass more nations.

Thus we will erect new diocese as needed, and raise new synods as warranted, even patriarchates. We have lost many dioceses and synods too, a pity. We adapt because the church is a living community, we follow the canons of the early church in making these decisions.

The early church was indeed composed of local synods of churches, this was true in the west as well. As new nations were evangelized the liturgy was translated into the vernacular. Later in history new synods were erected, following the earlier models.

Your own National Bishops Conferences area pale reflection of what was the same organizational structure in your Latin church (suppressed in 1870, revived in the 20th century in a more restrained and passive form). And the Maronite church you love so much is actually the fruit of this very same process of erecting new synods and patriarchates according to need. It is a very ancient practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
Also, I don't see catholicity in Eastern Orthodoxy, or perhaps we both look at it differently.
I have no doubt that you are seeing things differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
The Catholic Church is comprised of several Churches that in the post-schism world came back to Rome, and Rome with them. That made me think. But what stops me in my tracks is when they claim to be the Catholic Church. They're not Catholic in the full-sense of the word.
So then, are you saying that before these churches "came back" the Latin church was not Catholic in the full sense of the word?

This type of Catholicity is a new thing, one bishop controlling the others.
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Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
...the Holy Catholic Church is comprised of 23 Churches, there is diversity in tradition, custom, liturgy, etc. This is true catholicity.
Have you ever heard of "Praestantia Ritus Latini" ? Diversity of rites is a modern fashion in the church.

The policy of the past was to suppress all non-Latin rites. The concept of Sui Iuris chuches is practically brand new, since 1990. Before then there was only one church, and one code of canons all rites had to follow.

Czech Republic, Slovakia, southern Poland, what was later to become Hungary (before the Magyars) and a few other more minor areas were originally evangelized into the Byzantine rite. All forcefully suppressed.

In the west those suppressed included the Mozarabic, the Celtic and the Gallic churches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
We don't have simple the Latin-Rite in all the Churches of the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox have the Byzantine-Rite for all of theirs. I'm not trying to bash the Byzantine-Rite at all. I think it's very beautiful. What bugs me is how Eastern Orthodox will complain about Rome suppressing certain things. When the Eastern Orthodox, in specific, the Greeks, suppressed the Church in Antioch making it just like the Greek Orthodox. I see that sort of thing as hypocritical of the Eastern Orthodox.
Yes, the kings of the west adopted the same policies as the emperors of the east. Sadly, to monarchs the attuitude is often "all must conform".

The Melkites were the "king's party", and they followed the emperor in his preference for the theology of the Orthodox. Those who did not follow Chalcedon set themselves up against the emperor and his church. It is all true.

The king's party adopted the liturgy of the Great church in Constantinople, Hagia Sophia. No doubt political pressure was applied to expedite this change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
Sometimes some Orthodox posters have brought me down by saying rude, polemical and hurtful things by telling us that the fruits of the Catholic Church is Protestantism, but the truth of the matter is that, there have always been heresies and people trying to lead others astray.
You are not addressing the point. The point is Protestantism sprung from the loins of the Catholic church, and it's unique theology. This fact is neither rude nor polemical, it's just fact.

Protestantism and Catholicism of your variety are like two sides of the same coin.

All of the major Protestant innovators were trained and ordained priests of the Latin Catholic church, save one: Calvin. He was born into a Latin Catholic family and trained as a lawyer, educated in Latin Catholic schools.

This is why you guys can go on and on together arguing about the nature of Justification, the Faith and Works argument, the damnation of the unbaptised, predestination, etc...

The two groups are cut from the same bolt of cloth and speak the same language. In a sense the Papacy really is the first Protestant church, introducing rationalism into religious thought, and opening the gate wide for more and more innovation. I suppose it depends upon how one defines Protestantism, but it looks like the Latin Catholic church has all the marks.
Quote:
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I've never been happier in my 18 years of life than I am as a Catholic.
God grant you many years!
  #9  
Old Mar 29, '08, 6:22 pm
The Iambic Pen The Iambic Pen is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

I was just wanted to address the idea that Protestants become Orthodox instead of Catholic because they hold onto their anti-Catholic biases. This may very well be true for some; I don't know that is in the heart of every person. However, I don't think it's generally the case. I'm not Orthodox or Catholic yet, so maybe I'm coming from a slightly different perspective.

In my case, I studied Catholicism for some time before I even looked at Orthodoxy. I had basically accepted Catholic authority and teaching. Any anti-Catholic attitudes I may have had growing up, I had discarded when I saw that the Protestant arguments against Catholic just didn't hold up. I even accepted later doctrines of the Catholic Church, because I accepted the statement that these beliefs were held all along, but were only defined when challenged.

However, when I looked at Orthodox theology, this argument was not nearly so strong. If Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception, to give two later examples, were always believed until challenged, then either the teaching should be held by the Orthodox, or there should be an identifiable point in history where they turned away from it. I couldn't find either to be true. This caused to me take Orthodoxy more seriously and really try to learn about it. I continued to study Orthodoxy, and I began to appreciate it because it was Orthodox, not because it was not Catholic (in the Roman sense).

I haven't made a final decision yet, and there is much I admire about both Churches. As a Western Christian, in many ways, I would prefer to be Catholic. It certainly is more familiar. Still, there is also the draw of Orthodoxy. In any case, if I become Orthodox, it will be because of some sort of ignorant anti-Catholicism.
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Old Mar 29, '08, 7:18 pm
ForeverAdam ForeverAdam is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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Originally Posted by The Iambic Pen View Post
However, when I looked at Orthodox theology, this argument was not nearly so strong. If Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception, to give two later examples, were always believed until challenged, then either the teaching should be held by the Orthodox, or there should be an identifiable point in history where they turned away from it. I couldn't find either to be true. This caused to me take Orthodoxy more seriously and really try to learn about it. I continued to study Orthodoxy, and I began to appreciate it because it was Orthodox, not because it was not Catholic (in the Roman sense).
This is a good point. Every true doctrine is expected to have the historical pedigree of orthodoxy. With the dogmas of Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception, we fail to see this since we can witness when these theological opinions started, the debate that followed, the cautious toleration of the new teaching and finally its promulgation as truth. This move from new teaching-debate-and toleration and universal acceptance is how heterodoxy becomes entrenched, not how orthodoxy is maintained. It is always a bad sign when a Church has to arrive at a date when rejection of a supposed ancient teaching of their Church is condemned as heresy, or condemned in general, as this confirms that such a teaching is not part of the ancient Faith, which will be defended from denial by the Church of every age.

God bless,

Adam

P.S. All God's blessings on your continued journey to Holy Orthodoxy!
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Old Mar 29, '08, 9:22 pm
The Iambic Pen The Iambic Pen is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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In any case, if I become Orthodox, it will be because of some sort of ignorant anti-Catholicism.
I noticed a rather unfortunate typographical error in my previous post, which actually says the exact opposite of what I meant. The following is what I meant to say:

In any case, if I become Orthodox, it will not be because of some sort of ignorant anti-Catholicism.
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  #12  
Old Mar 29, '08, 9:45 pm
vocatio vocatio is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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Originally Posted by josephdaniel29 View Post
Pray tell where in the world did you hear that? That's a common tactic. Brand American Orthodox as anti-Catholic bigots and you don't have to actually answer their arguments. Can you please cite the study that shows most American Orthodox are former "anti-Catholics". You guys are so sure of yourselves that you can't imagine someone looking at the historical facts and coming to any conclusion other than the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church. So if a person doesn't come to that conclusion the only plausible explanation is that person must be a former Fundamentalist anti-Catholic bigot.


Yours in Christ
Joe
Joe,
Noone is berating you. you can put your shield down...the sword too, I'm unarmed. My post is merely a surprized view that no matter how charitable I've spoken with an Orhodox about becoming Orthodox, I receive all kinds of resistance - insults in fact. When I review the messges I'm surprized at the lack of charity. And your inquery on who is just not acceptable you know. The messages are in a collection of emails that I've saved for putting together a book one day. The problem holding me back is "detraction". I am Catholic and the Church clearly says that to scandalize someone even if it is true is not right. So Even if I went back to the original source and posted them [not accepted on this forum BTW, even though quite inconvenient at times]. Now that I understand what detraction is and that it is a sin I have to walk more carefully. I've had to come down off of my high horse.

I've spoken with many Orthtodox online that were even former Cahtolics. But many were from various Protestant backgrounds. Further, I've heard the same thing form other Orthodox, one friend that hangs out on another forum with me. I like him, but I can see he's still holding back on some of the real big issues. He's gotten a lot better.

If you have statistics on this I would love to see it. I should have toned down my statement that it is a well know fact to many people that I've met or run into, including priests and converts to Orthodoxy have conveyed this message as a way to overcome the resistence that I felt on my journey in looking into it, hoping my wife would follow me. But the more history I read, the more I realize the same as Harpazo. I'm open to eastern Catholicism now, but only if my wife would follow. I'm trying to get her out of her very tidy safe box to venture out into being fully Catholic by experiencing the Easter Liturgies together. She's tired of the Saturday bus Jewel ??? film strips, etc. She lost her childhood for the Lord because her father was the most intense proselytizing Chritian in that area. She's had enough of the fighting. She desires peace, and my hanging out on apologetics probably doesn't help her. But its a way of learning and sharing.
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Old Mar 29, '08, 9:52 pm
jimmy jimmy is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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Originally Posted by The Iambic Pen View Post
I noticed a rather unfortunate typographical error in my previous post, which actually says the exact opposite of what I meant. The following is what I meant to say:

In any case, if I become Orthodox, it will not be because of some sort of ignorant anti-Catholicism.

Haha, maybe it is some kind of Fruedian slip.
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Old Mar 29, '08, 9:56 pm
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iambic Pen View Post
I noticed a rather unfortunate typographical error in my previous post, which actually says the exact opposite of what I meant. The following is what I meant to say:

In any case, if I become Orthodox, it will not be because of some sort of ignorant anti-Catholicism.
You may find youself at a crossroads. Look into Eastern Catholicism. It's very much like the Eastern Orthodox. I continue to study Orthodoxy as I study the Latin rite. You see, since I had receive the sacraments into being an adult Catholic I was never considered not Catholic and thus realized that I am Catholic...Latin...I hate the term Roman Catholic, it was really used to insult Catholics that accept Papal Authority. It would be rather foolish for me to leave my faith for another that I'm really just learning about. And that is not likely to happen now. I read and pray constantly on these issues. I love the Jesus Prayer and integrate certain Orthodox rituals into rituals...crossing for example. My wife bought me a chikoti for Christmas....made by monks I believe.
  #15  
Old Mar 30, '08, 3:06 am
prodromos prodromos is offline
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Default Re: Do Orthodox tend to be more intense than Catholic?

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Haha, maybe it is some kind of Fruedian slip.
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing, but you meant your mother
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