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  #1  
Old Mar 29, '08, 7:56 am
Harmony1988 Harmony1988 is offline
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Default Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

http://www.stjosephschurch.net/leoxiii.htm

Of course, whether the vision happened and exactly what was said is highly questionable. But I've always wondered why on earth Bl. John XXIII removed the prayer to St. Michael from the mass. As for the Pope John Paul II comments, they are taken WAY out of context.
  #2  
Old Mar 29, '08, 8:05 am
marymonde marymonde is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmony1988 View Post
http://www.stjosephschurch.net/leoxiii.htm

Of course, whether the vision happened and exactly what was said is highly questionable. But I've always wondered why on earth Bl. John XXIII removed the prayer to St. Michael from the mass. As for the Pope John Paul II comments, they are taken WAY out of context.

The vision happened. Some of the Cardinals thought His Holiness was dead after the vision ceased.

As to why the prayers are no longer said? If you believe the vision you will believe satan has power over a great majority of those who are Catholic, especially over the past 100 years or so.

Satan IS prowling about the world seeking the ruin of souls and very few Catholics know this powerful prayer anymore to reduce his power in their lives.
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  #3  
Old Mar 29, '08, 8:09 am
Harmony1988 Harmony1988 is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

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Originally Posted by marymonde View Post
The vision happened. Some of the Cardinals thought His Holiness was dead after the vision ceased.

As to why the prayers are no longer said? If you believe the vision you will believe satan has power over a great majority of those who are Catholic, especially over the past 100 years or so.

Satan IS prowling about the world seeking the ruin of souls and very few Catholics know this powerful prayer anymore to reduce his power in their lives.
Yes, but are you implying that Bl. John XXIII or Pope Paul VI was induced into removing those prayers by Satan?

You are right on how very few people know this prayer to St. Michael and even less know about Pope Leo XIII's vision and even less know who Leo XIII actually is. Then there are the ones that have no idea who Satan is either, in terms of not really taking seriouly his existence, but believing there is a random demon walking around possessing people sometimes (but never them)
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Old Mar 29, '08, 8:17 am
marymonde marymonde is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

Not induced, but influenced by. To try to make Catholicism more approachable to non-Catholics and protestants, certain prayers were removed. What the popes motives were, I couldn't tell you.
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  #5  
Old Mar 29, '08, 8:24 am
stbruno stbruno is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

Yes, I agree it is a strange article, but I have to tell you....in every missalettte, there is the Prayer of St.Michael printed. In a parish we visited in Wisconsin, they still say the prayer collectively after mass. I regularly say the prayer, not after mass, but after I receive Holy Communion...no one told me to do that, I just do it.
The wonderful news is that the Lord promised to be with us till the end of time, and the Holy Spirit would be with us to protect the church. So no matter how many ways we have tried to destroy our church from the outside and the inside, by bad politics and corrupt leaders, the church has survived and will because God told us himself that it would. As far as the devil, he has no power if we don't give it to him. His power of evil can be defeated if we remain close to the God through the sacraments. And that's my intention and for me, I am praying for lukewarm souls today...as promised by the Divine Mercy novena intention today...is how we can regain those who have been tepid in their faith. God is greater than the devil...and we who know the rest of the story should take that to the bank!!!
  #6  
Old Mar 29, '08, 8:39 am
catharina catharina is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

It took me less than a minute to view parts of the the stjosephchurch.net website and I'm fully convinvced that it bears no fidelity to the Chair of Peter. Among other things, it refers to Pius XII as "the last good Pope." It teaches that one should NEVER attend the NO Mass. It teaches that Bishops of the Catholic Church are not really consecrated. One minute of scanning the site is enough to tell me that I should never return to it - and I won't. That it chooses to sensationalize a "vision of Pope Leo XIII" is nothing to me. Give me a proper teacher re such a vision and I'll pay attention.


Already THIS thread speculates whether Pope John XXIII was influenced or induced by Satan to make changes to customs in the Church. HORRIBLE.

Be very careful. May God have mercy on us.
  #7  
Old Mar 29, '08, 9:41 am
latinmasslover latinmasslover is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmony1988 View Post
http://www.stjosephschurch.net/leoxiii.htm

Of course, whether the vision happened and exactly what was said is highly questionable. But I've always wondered why on earth Bl. John XXIII removed the prayer to St. Michael from the mass. As for the Pope John Paul II comments, they are taken WAY out of context.
Does he specify how they're taken out of context?

They're not. There is no argument against the truth, and the vision simply showed Pope Leo what has already come to pass in the Church, that God has permitted the Devil to attack with such force as to make it appear that She will fall. Saints have prophesied this for quite a while. Nothing new about the vision, really.
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  #8  
Old Mar 29, '08, 10:57 am
AJV AJV is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

Quote:
Originally Posted by marymonde View Post
The vision happened. Some of the Cardinals thought His Holiness was dead after the vision ceased.
Could you cite please, an authentic source for the vision?

I see some problems with the article. This is my synopsis of it.
  • 1884 Pope had a vision
  • He promulgates a prayer after the vision
  • Pope Leo XIII writes a prayer to St. Michael at the end
  • At the end of the article, there is a long prayer said to be written by Leo XIII.
  • It is not clear whether this prayer was the one the article refers to as the one Leo XIII “instructed [that it] be said after every low Mass”. In any case, following that is the “short” prayer. The impression I’m getting is that the short prayer is derived from the long prayer.

Now, consider this
  • 1884- Pope gives the first Leonine Prayers - not prayer to St. Michael
  • 1886 – Pope gives the second set of Leonine prayers with the “short” version of the prayer to St. Michael
  • 1888 - first part of long prayer is published
  • 1890 – second part of the long prayer published.

Please note that the article publishes a further abbreviated version of the long prayer that was approved a decade later.

The synopsis you will find here. Fr. C. does not give the full text of the decrees accompanying each one, but I have them (except for 1886) and can post them if you would like to see them.

What conclusion is to be drawn from this?
  • The writer is evidently incorrect that the shorter prayer is derived from the first(if he meant that)
  • The long prayer supposedly written by Leo XIII had two parts- one clearly NOT meant to be used after low Mass - and issued two years after each other.
  • Pope had a vision and then waited anywhere from 2- 6 years before asking it be recited. Why?

The writer says “Well, 75 years from 1884 is 1959. Wow, what a coincidence that it was on January 25, 1959, that John XXIII publicly summoned the Second Vatican Council.”

I would rather say “Well, 75 years (back) from 1959 is 1884. Wow, what a coincidence that it was on October 13, 1884, that Leo XIII had his vision!”

Last edited by AJV; Mar 29, '08 at 11:16 am.
  #9  
Old Mar 29, '08, 11:03 am
SenorSalsa SenorSalsa is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

slightly off of the arguments of this thread, why are the several signs of the cross necessary during the long version of the prayer? Was there some rule of thumb when the sign of the cross should be made?
  #10  
Old Mar 29, '08, 11:05 am
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

Note that the Prayer to St Michael was not singled out for removal. VII recommended that the mass be trimmed of the additions that had been added over the years and returned to its basic form. [How well this was done is another question. We are looking at what they were directed to do.] Notable items for removal were all the prayers after mass, the Last Gospel, the beginning prayers at the foot of the altar and the repetition of the penitential rite at Communion time.
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  #11  
Old Mar 29, '08, 11:22 am
AJV AJV is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

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Originally Posted by SenorSalsa View Post
slightly off of the arguments of this thread, why are the several signs of the cross necessary during the long version of the prayer? Was there some rule of thumb when the sign of the cross should be made?
It was an exorcism (Roman Ritual). The signs of the cross were to be made by the priest.

I have seen reappeared versions on the Internet that modify the language somewhat and suggest making a cross on oneself. I don't know what authority is there for the practice...it seems dangerous to me, since the prayer commands the devil. It seems to me that such imprecatory prayers should only be done by a properly trained priest (exorcist)
  #12  
Old Mar 29, '08, 11:51 am
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

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Originally Posted by catharina View Post
It took me less than a minute to view parts of the the stjosephchurch.net website and I'm fully convinvced that it bears no fidelity to the Chair of Peter. Among other things, it refers to Pius XII as "the last good Pope." It teaches that one should NEVER attend the NO Mass. It teaches that Bishops of the Catholic Church are not really consecrated. One minute of scanning the site is enough to tell me that I should never return to it - and I won't. That it chooses to sensationalize a "vision of Pope Leo XIII" is nothing to me. Give me a proper teacher re such a vision and I'll pay attention.


Already THIS thread speculates whether Pope John XXIII was influenced or induced by Satan to make changes to customs in the Church. HORRIBLE.

Be very careful. May God have mercy on us.
Catharina is right, check out the rest of that site.
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  #13  
Old Mar 29, '08, 11:55 am
catharina catharina is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

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Originally Posted by Like View Post
Catharina is right, check out the rest of that site.
Thanks, Like.

Yes, it's a dreadful site, clearly engaged AGAINST Holy Mother Church.
  #14  
Old Mar 29, '08, 12:16 pm
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

as has been fully answered on the other open thread on the topic of the prayer to St. Michael, it was NEVER part of the Mass, but recited after Mass, and there is no law preventing the priest or anyone else from reciting after Mass if they wish, or saying the rosary, or any other devotion. go for it, and don't make up an issue of debate and dissent where none exists.
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Old Mar 29, '08, 4:24 pm
Harmony1988 Harmony1988 is offline
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Default Re: Strange article on Pope Leo XIII's vision

Quote:
Originally Posted by catharina View Post
It took me less than a minute to view parts of the the stjosephchurch.net website and I'm fully convinvced that it bears no fidelity to the Chair of Peter. Among other things, it refers to Pius XII as "the last good Pope." It teaches that one should NEVER attend the NO Mass. It teaches that Bishops of the Catholic Church are not really consecrated. One minute of scanning the site is enough to tell me that I should never return to it - and I won't. That it chooses to sensationalize a "vision of Pope Leo XIII" is nothing to me. Give me a proper teacher re such a vision and I'll pay attention.


Already THIS thread speculates whether Pope John XXIII was influenced or induced by Satan to make changes to customs in the Church. HORRIBLE.

Be very careful. May God have mercy on us.
None of us take John XXIII to be an evil man or any such thing, but do know during Vatican II there were all sorts of the theologians, liberal and conservative, all with vastly different ideas, they could have easily suggested the removal of the prayers and etc.

We know that the site is against our recent popes and such, but you take things too out of context. Yes, may God have mercy on us, but I highly doubt any of us were going to become a sedevacantist or anything like that.

Calm down, you are getting hysterical
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