Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion? - Page 6

**vern humphrey** · #76 Apr 28, '08, 3:38 pm

The lesson is, when you begin drawing artificial lines and saying, "Everyone on this side of the line is not human" you always find people who you now regard as fully human wind up on the wrong side of the line.

And ultimately, the guy drawing the line may find himself on the wrong side.

sodak · #77 Apr 28, '08, 3:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by vern humphrey

The lesson is, when you begin drawing artificial lines and saying, "Everyone on this side of the line is not human" you always find people who you now regard as fully human wind up on the wrong side of the line.

And ultimately, the guy drawing the line may find himself on the wrong side.

Perhaps we should let God draw the line - wait, he already has, through the Church!

**vern humphrey** · #78 Apr 28, '08, 4:11 pm

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Originally Posted by sodak

Perhaps we should let God draw the line - wait, he already has, through the Church!

How 'bout them apples!

mlchance · #79 Apr 28, '08, 4:24 pm

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Originally Posted by Swan

Here is some supporting evidence on the subject of sentience, the above reasoning on which I agree with.

Sentience equals the ability to feel pain?

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Originally Posted by Swan

I think it goes to the heart of the fetus having the equality of a fully developed, able-to-survive outside the womb, baby.

A baby can only survive outside the womb if cared for. The baby is still wholly dependent on another for life; only the manner of dependence has changed.

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Originally Posted by Swan

IMO, the fetus does not equal a human, it hasn't even formed enough to be aware of itself or life....

Now please demonstrate the rationality of your opinion that humanity depends on the ability to be aware.

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Originally Posted by Swan

...The other is the seeming lack of regard for born children living in poverty and/or otherwise suffering. Many end up dead as a result of poverty (crime, lack of preventive healtcase, decent housing, etc, etc - all the evils of poverty) yet most pro-life folks are the same ones who vote to cut funding to programs these children need to survive.

Now you're really just making stuff up. Please present hard data that "most pro-life folks" support not helping children who live in poverty.

Why is it so hard for pro-abortion advocates to advance a coherent argument in favor of their position?

-- Mark L. Chance.

**rlg94086** · #80 Apr 28, '08, 4:37 pm

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Originally Posted by mlchance

Why is it so hard for pro-abortion advocates to advance a coherent argument in favor of their position?

That's a rhetorical question, right?

Certainly, it is impossible for a Catholic pro-abortion advocate to advance any pro-abortion argument from a Catholic viewpoint.

**vern humphrey** · #81 Apr 28, '08, 4:41 pm

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Originally Posted by rlg94086

That's a rhetorical question, right?

Certainly, it is impossible for a Catholic pro-abortion advocate to advance any pro-abortion argument from a Catholic viewpoint.

"Well, it has to do with ensoulment and a nunaced position. The Catechism is just a crib sheet, you know. And you see everything in black and white. And you think like a Protestant."

Sound familiar?

**rlg94086** · #82 Apr 28, '08, 4:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by vern humphrey

"Well, it has to do with ensoulment and a nunaced position. The Catechism is just a crib sheet, you know. And you see everything in black and white. And you think like a Protestant."

Sound familiar?

So, you are saying it will take more than 5-6 paragraphs, eh? What is it ole BamaRider calls it...a weather report?

leftistdestroye · #83 Apr 28, '08, 4:54 pm

Swan;3616604]

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yet most pro-life folks are the same ones who vote to cut funding to programs these children need to survive. That's murder, IMO. And the argument is usually that "forced taxing" is bad - it is not the government's place to help the poor. So, as I understand it, it is okay for the government to step in and tell me what to do, but not you. It is okay for the government to insist the children are born but wrong for them to play a role in trying to assure the kids have a decent change at life? Sorry, but to me that is pure hypocrisy. I'm more concerned about those who suffer every day than I am about those who aren't developed enough to suffer at all

It is the governments job to protect the people from foreign invaders, not coddle the people, that is our job. The quality of life is not the government's responsibillity. The Framers were free and independant people and created a governmnet of the same. They SPECIFICALLY wanted a limited government. Back then and for most of our history, life was 500 times harder than it is now, and forced charity was not legislated. If you are concerned about poor suffering people, like we all are, then stop exherting your energy on the government, and do something about it yourself. You seem to want to set up a machine that will take care of suffering for you while you feel good about it. I say, get up and do it yourself. Nobody is stopping you. Lead by example. Get off of these forums and go help people. Teach them how to fish. And that, I promise, will make you feel real good.

leftistdestroye · #84 Apr 28, '08, 4:56 pm

SimonArizona;3616728]

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The choice has already been made; to have sex which leads to children-that is its intention. A world that loves pleasure more than God perverts the holiness of the sex act. Orgasm is god. that is his name, lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh is the way to orgasm whom they serve. Self-mastery and discipline are unfavorable words for a people who are incontinent.

Children are not seen as the gift of God that revelation and experience also tell us that they are indeed. God of compassion, have mercy on us disobedient children, turn our hearts towards the love and joy and salvation of obedience to the commandments which are life. amen

Well said, man

mapleoak · #85 Apr 29, '08, 3:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swan

I think it goes to the heart of the fetus having the equality of a fully developed, able-to-survive outside the womb, baby.

I was hoping with this thread, that pro-abortion advocates would be able to advance some more substantial arguments to justify their support of abortion than the typical diatribe that is all too common. Guess I was asking too much.

Yes, it goes to the heart of the unborn baby having the equality of a fully developed, able-to-survive outside the womb, baby.

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IMO, the fetus does not equal a human,

Sure it does, your opinion is flat out wrong. It is fully human on all fronts, biologically, scientifically, and theologically.

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it hasn't even formed enough to be aware of itself or life (unlike someone in a coma or PVS who has developed that ability, so PLEASE do not compare the two as I am not doing so).

To be unaware is to not be human as much as to be asleep is to not be human.

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There are a couple of other aspects as well - one is the "Silent Scream" issue which was used to suggest that aborted fetus's feel pain when they do not.

That's like saying "well, they've been to the moon and picked up moon rocks and said the moon is not made of cheese, but I don't believe them. I say the moon is made of cheese". It is not a suggestion that unborn children being aborted feel pain, it is a fact. Videos such as "Silent Scream" make that bluntly obvious to all but the willfully ignorant and self deceivers.

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The other is the seeming lack of regard for born children living in poverty and/or otherwise suffering.

Support needed for this claim. Are you claiming there is a lack of regard for the poor in general, or are you somehow advancing the claim that there is some kind of correlation between being anti-murder and being disdainful of the poor?

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Many end up dead as a result of poverty (crime, lack of preventive healtcase, decent housing, etc, etc - all the evils of poverty)

You have lost pretty much all credibility by that statement. I am most certain you can ask any staunch pro-lifer what their view is on charitable works and you will get a totally opposite view of what you believe it to be. Of all the militant pro-lifers I know, they are among the most charitable of people I know.

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That's murder, IMO. And the argument is usually that "forced taxing" is bad - it is not the government's place to help the poor.

Opposing redistribution is not murder. Killing innocent human beings is murder.

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So, as I understand it, it is okay for the government to step in and tell me what to do, but not you. It is okay for the government to insist the children are born but wrong for them to play a role in trying to assure the kids have a decent change at life?

A cow gives milk so you shouldn't cut hay with scissors. Here is a quiz. Can you tell how what one cuts the hay with that a cow eats has to do with whether it gives milk or not? Is a farmer typically only concerned about the cow giving milk or would it be reasonable to say a farmer is going to be concerned with whether his cow gets enough to eat so it can produce milk? Or is his solution to just stop milking the cow? No milk, no need to feed it hay, problem solved.

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Sorry, but to me that is pure hypocrisy. I'm more concerned about those who suffer every day than I am about those who aren't developed enough to suffer at all.

You would rather people be murdered that way you don't have to be bothered or inconvenienced by them. Heaven forbid there would be another person for you to show charity toward.

**vern humphrey** · #86 Apr 29, '08, 3:17 pm

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Originally Posted by rlg94086

So, you are saying it will take more than 5-6 paragraphs, eh? What is it ole BamaRider calls it...a weather report?

Whether it takes more than 5-6 paragraphs or not, you can bet your sweet bippy you're gonna get more than 5-6 paragraphs.

wabrams · #87 Apr 29, '08, 6:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swan

I think it goes to the heart of the fetus having the equality of a fully developed, able-to-survive outside the womb, baby. IMO, the fetus does not equal a human, it hasn't even formed enough to be aware of itself or life

Do you think a neonate nows it's alive? At what age able to form the awareness to know we are alive? By your standards, it is ok to kill a child up to the first year to year and a half.

neat62 · #88 Apr 29, '08, 7:17 pm

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Originally Posted by wabrams

Do you think a neonate nows it's alive? At what age able to form the awareness to know we are alive? By your standards, it is ok to kill a child up to the first year to year and a half.

Actually by Swan's standards...it would be even longer than that, because she stated that one needs to be able to survive on its own..and surely, a 1 /12 year old...2 year old...is not able to survive on their own.

Its really a ridiculous statement...amazing isn't it...the nonsense people will believe to justify their own selfishness.

mapleoak · #89 Apr 30, '08, 3:04 am

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Originally Posted by neat62

Actually by Swan's standards...it would be even longer than that, because she stated that one needs to be able to survive on its own..and surely, a 1 /12 year old...2 year old...is not able to survive on their own.

Its really a ridiculous statement...amazing isn't it...the nonsense people will believe to justify their own selfishness.

I've always wondered where the idea that having dependency equals being disposable comes from. Actually its funny when people take an action they are attached to and rationalize ways to make it justified. This rather than the opposite which is having reason determine whether something is justified.

**vern humphrey** · #90 Apr 30, '08, 5:20 am

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Originally Posted by neat62

Actually by Swan's standards...it would be even longer than that, because she stated that one needs to be able to survive on its own..and surely, a 1 /12 year old...2 year old...is not able to survive on their own.

Its really a ridiculous statement...amazing isn't it...the nonsense people will believe to justify their own selfishness.

That same standard would justify euthanasia. Come visit the nursing home where my wife works, and I can show you dozens of people who, if turned out and forced to exist on their own, would quickly die.