Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 22, 2008 - Page 4

iohannes13 · #46 Apr 29, '08, 8:25 pm

Hi Surfinpure,

If you read my other posts, you'll see that I completely understand the dress standards of our society.

I attend a poor parish and through my own experience, I understand that people wear what they can to mass. And I believe that just about everyone wears the clothes they believe are their best to mass, but these clothes won't be at the level of a suit and tie according to the social standard. For example, you'll see jackets with sports logos on their backs, flannel shirts, t-shirts, an occasional sports jersey. The clergy and the community at this parish doesn't hold anyone to the social standard of formal dress to attend mass. Are the expectations different in parishes in different communities? For example, do parishioners in middle-class neighborhoods expect everyone to wear a suit and tie to mass every sunday?

One of my other arguments is that people shouldn't make assumptions when they see someone dressed a certain way. We don't know the whole story as to why they are dressed a particular way on any given Sunday. What if someone from my parish, who in their estimate are wearing their best clothes (but not a shirt and tie), show up to a parish where the parishioners feel that the appropriate way to dress is a suit? Would they get singled out for an E-letter because they weren't dressed "appropriately?" do you understand what I'm getting at? That's where all my questions come from and I've tried to show that there are other perspectives about "appropriate" dress for mass. And they don't always agree with the social standard of formal dress.

Crumpy · #47 Apr 29, '08, 10:17 pm

It's on subject to point this out: I thought it was inappropriate for those ladies to wear skirts-above-the-knee to the Mass at Yankee Stadium -- the ladies who were presenting the offertory gifts to the Pope.

Well...you know that they line themselves up right in front of the pope, and then they BOW, looked like they were trying to moon everybody behind home plate.

I saw one young woman in jeans last Good Friday at the Vatican, who was walking around in front of the pope and lit one of the candles. These were the tight hip-hugging jeans, of course. I've noticed others in jeans at the Vatican Masses, too.

I liked the choir robes at the papal mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NY, and the dark choir robes in the chapel at EWTN are a great equalizer and drop the distractions way down.

More and more, I'm thinking of buying myself an augustinian or franciscan monk robe to wear to church. We Americans are SO obsessed with our appearance that we really need some coaching on this subject. I'm sure the Chinese are ready and able to mass-produce some conservative type clothing for us to wear to Church.

or consider: http://www.gothicgarments.com/

SCALCO · #48 Apr 30, '08, 4:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapaxDei

Indeed.

"Best" in what way? As in, his favorite shirt? How would that be relevant?

Anyone who can afford a sports jersey can afford a decent dress shirt. If he only has enough money for one or the other, then he needs to re-think his priorities.

I don't think it's relevant. CapaxDei, do you think everyone should wear dress clothes to mass? What about jeans or polos?

surfinpure · #49 Apr 30, '08, 9:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by iohannes13

Hi Surfinpure,

If you read my other posts, you'll see that I completely understand the dress standards of our society.

I attend a poor parish and through my own experience, I understand that people wear what they can to mass. And I believe that just about everyone wears the clothes they believe are their best to mass, but these clothes won't be at the level of a suit and tie according to the social standard. For example, you'll see jackets with sports logos on their backs, flannel shirts, t-shirts, an occasional sports jersey. The clergy and the community at this parish doesn't hold anyone to the social standard of formal dress to attend mass. Are the expectations different in parishes in different communities? For example, do parishioners in middle-class neighborhoods expect everyone to wear a suit and tie to mass every sunday?

One of my other arguments is that people shouldn't make assumptions when they see someone dressed a certain way. We don't know the whole story as to why they are dressed a particular way on any given Sunday. What if someone from my parish, who in their estimate are wearing their best clothes (but not a shirt and tie), show up to a parish where the parishioners feel that the appropriate way to dress is a suit? Would they get singled out for an E-letter because they weren't dressed "appropriately?" do you understand what I'm getting at? That's where all my questions come from and I've tried to show that there are other perspectives about "appropriate" dress for mass. And they don't always agree with the social standard of formal dress.

There certainly must be some unfortunate folks who honestly believe wearing their "good jeans" to Mass is a sign of reverence on their part. But I'm afraid there is a large number of Mass-goers who know that there is a standard of dress, but reject that standard out of sloppiness or rebellion. We are not so far from that time when everyone wore their "Sunday best" that people can claim not to know, at least generally, what the standard is. They may not pinpoint the suit-and-tie standard right away, but it is no great leap to connect a higher rule of dress with pulling out the slacks instead of the jeans. We need to give people credit for common sense.

What's more, if some people really don't know that Mass is an occasion warranting great reverence in apparel, then somebody needs to inform them, which is exactly, I suspect, what Mr. Keating was attempting to do.

AmbroseSJ · #50 Apr 30, '08, 4:58 pm

I think there's way too much concern about formality in dress at Mass, when in fact there should only be two concerns:
1. modest
2. clean

This goes for both men and women. Women especially think formality is more important than modesty. Just because something would be appropriate for a New Years Eve Party at Hugh Hefner's penthouse club, does not make it ok for church.

Men likewise should have a modest attire. Modesty is not just about covering up, it's also about not drawing attention to one's self.

Clean should not be a problem.

I would be happy if everyone just dressed in modest and clean clothes. I believe God would be more interested in our soul, and our spirit, if it could likewise reflect a modest and clean attire. We are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Formality in attire has no bearing on that. There's too much temptation to go for "effect" by rationalizing that God wants us to wear our very best clothes, and dazzle everyone with our exterior.

iohannes13 · #51 May 1, '08, 6:09 pm

Nicely said!

iohannes13 · #52 May 1, '08, 6:22 pm

AIMEE - Thanks for your comments.

SCALCO - Thanks for sharing the picture of your grandfather. He looks sharp! And he's wearing the hat slightly tilted...SMOOOOTH.

EtienneGilson · #53 May 2, '08, 10:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by iohannes13

Back to the pants, I don’t know the history, but I tried to imagine a scenario to answer the question of what happened when these robes went out of style and pants replaced them. Were the people that wore the robes to mass judging those that began to wear pants? Did they believe that there was a decline of etiquette and standards?

the question of wearing trousers preoccupied the minds of Byzantine missionaries in the ninth century no less than of English and American missionaries in the nineteenth. But whereas these modern missionaries encouraged the wearing of trousers as part of Christian civilization, the Byzantines banned them as pagan

Christopher Dawson "Religion and the Rise of Western Culture"

valient Lucy · #54 May 2, '08, 3:46 pm

As for clothing...

I am trying to get into the habit of wearing skirts and dresses to Sunday Mass. My reasoning being that I'm a human being (particularly a woman) and my outside (body) informs my inside (soul.) I feel differently wearing a dress (or even a nice business suit) than I do wearing jeans, and I'm fairly certain I'm not the only woman who feels that way. Plus, I feel that if I dress nicer for work, social events, or a date, than I do for Mass, then my priorities are somewhat out of whack.

On the subject of men wearing dress shirts and ties to Mass however, I can see a disadvantage to that. I find that men become much more attractive wearing suits and ties than they do wearing most other clothes. It's bad enough that I find men much more attractive when I see them at Mass; let's not add to that.

August AWeitzel · #55 May 2, '08, 4:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iohannes13

I agree, hats should be removed as soon as you enter church grounds, way before you enter the church. The other clothing items....well....as long as their clothing is not scandalous or distracting what harm is there? I understand the idea of "looking one's best" when we attend mass. I wear my best clothes when I attend mass. Only problem is that I only attend once every two years. Having good dress etiquite for mass doesn't help me with my struggles. At least these individuals are attending mass.

But I also kept thinking about the parable of the rich and the poor man. Wasn't the rich man looking down on the poor man because of how he dressed? I was taught in catechism class not to check-out and/or compare how other people were dressed during mass (and that I should not critcize after mass either) because then I would be following in the rich man's prideful footsteps: "I'm dressed better, therefore I am holier." "God, how can you accept that person's worship when they look like vagabonds?"

Wasn't the moral of that story that we should attend mass with love in our hearts to worship God? So maybe the idea of "looking one's best" isn't so much how we look on the outside, but how we are internally/spiritually during the mass?

You clothing will not matter at all if you attend our Catholic Church in my parish. We have never looked down on anyone because of how he or she dressed. We have guys making visits i their work clothes and sometimes they stink! We love them all, Some guys come i dressed like they are going to a business meeting, maybe they are. We don't care. Most of them we know, but it doesnnn't matter all are welcome.

iohannes13 · #56 May 2, '08, 5:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Keating

2. The people I described seeing at Mass attend local parishes. The newness of the cars they get into after Mass pretty well suggests that the jerseys or shorts they wear to church are not the only things in their closets. They may not have Imelda Marcos's wardrobe, but I'm quite sure they could have worn something that shows more respect to our Lord, the priest, and--yes--the other folks at Mass.

Hi Karl Keating, I've been thinking a lot about what you wrote in your clarification I'm quoting. After much thought on how I can address that or respond to it, I just can't. I just don't know what to say. But I do have a question for you.

In reference to Matthew 7:3-5, would you suggest in your next E-Letter that before we focus on how other people dress to mass, we should look to ourselves and search our hearts and determine how we can improve our own attire for mass? The way I see it, there is room for EVERYONE to improve. You don't have to suggest that the change we make be dramatic, but only one notch up than how we currently dress. Maybe your suggestion could be formulated something like this:

If you wear t-shirts and jeans, start wearing Khakis and a polo style t-shirt; If you wear Khakis and a polo shirt, start wearing slacks and a dress shirt. If you wear slacks and a dress shirt, start wearing the whole suit, if you wear suits to mass, break all the rules and wear a tux.

JReducation · #57 May 2, '08, 7:07 pm

I have to ask this question. WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE LIVE?

I have lived in three states and five parishes in the USA, also in Europe, South America and the Caribbean.

Of course I have seen people who were dressed inappropriately for mass. But I can't say that it's the norm in any of the parishes in which I have lived and worked. It's the exception.

I now live in Florida and most people wear clothing that is comfortable for our climate, casual, but nothing that one would call scandalous or inappropriate. Even our younger people who tend to wear T-shirts and jeans, always wear clean clothing and clothes that fit them properly.

The worse I have seen in Florida are sneakers or sandals among adolescents. Given the climate and the fact that it rains six-months out of a year, I don't find these to be inappropriate footwear.

I would describe our people's clothing as simple, casual, appropriate for the climate and Church. I don't believe that Mr. Keating is advocating that people dress as we did in the 1950s or early 60s, the Jackie Kennedy look.

People just don't dress that way anymore, not even for the office. Slacks and a nice blouse or shirt are the common dress for offices in South Florida. Unless you work in a place that has indoor parking and strong airconditioning, you rarely see anyone wearing a tie or pantyhose, either in church or at work.

But we don't see the large numbers of inappropriate fasions either.

I sometimes wonder if it's a regional thing or if some people are hypercritical, maybe both.

JR

surfinpure · #58 May 2, '08, 7:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JReducation

I have to ask this question. WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE LIVE?

I have lived in three states and five parishes in the USA, also in Europe, South America and the Caribbean.

Of course I have seen people who were dressed inappropriately for mass. But I can't say that it's the norm in any of the parishes in which I have lived and worked. It's the exception.

I now live in Florida and most people wear clothing that is comfortable for our climate, casual, but nothing that one would call scandalous or inappropriate. Even our younger people who tend to wear T-shirts and jeans, always wear clean clothing and clothes that fit them properly.

The worse I have seen in Florida are sneakers or sandals among adolescents. Given the climate and the fact that it rains six-months out of a year, I don't find these to be inappropriate footwear.

I would describe our people's clothing as simple, casual, appropriate for the climate and Church. I don't believe that Mr. Keating is advocating that people dress as we did in the 1950s or early 60s, the Jackie Kennedy look.

People just don't dress that way anymore, not even for the office. Slacks and a nice blouse or shirt are the common dress for offices in South Florida. Unless you work in a place that has indoor parking and strong airconditioning, you rarely see anyone wearing a tie or pantyhose, either in church or at work.

But we don't see the large numbers of inappropriate fasions either.

I sometimes wonder if it's a regional thing or if some people are hypercritical, maybe both.

JR

I live on the Texas Gulf Coast, where it is hot and humid (very similar to the Florida climate). In our previous parish (this one is much more reverent and conservative) offensive dress was the norm, and respectful dress was the anomaly. Examples: backless dresses, spaghetti straps, midriffs, see-through blouses, cleavage, mini-skirts, and very tight clothing. There was also one man who regularly came wearing a T-shirt with a picture of a woman in a bikini on the back. Men routinely wore flip-flops. This is how people dressed, both young and not-so-young. Even women in their 50s and 60s were showing tons of skin.

Once I mentioned this problem to our pastor, citing the Vatican's dress standards, the Catechism, and common sense, and you know what he told me? "Give me a break, we're on an Island!" He then informed me that if it caused a distraction for me (nevermind my husband) that I ought to sit in the very front row and not be so Pharisaical.

That was one of the very last times we worshiped at that parish, I'm sorry to say. My husband was constantly turning his head or closing his eyes to avoid the temptation posed by bared figures. I was constantly frustrated about the grave disrespect being shown to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament every Sunday. I'll never forget the one occasion when a teenage girl with extreme low-rise pants (read: leaving nothing to the imagination) and a tank top presented the gifts. I nearly cried for the sacrilige that was being committed, for the parents who were so thoughtless as to bring their daughter to Mass that way, and for the priest who openly allowed it time after time.

JOE OBERR · #59 May 3, '08, 3:29 am

So long as priests think that proclaiming the Gospel means commenting on the readings of the day people will dress sloppily for Mass. We will also sin more, i.e., have abortions, commit adultery, not attend Sunday Mass, practice artificial birth control, etc along with other things the culture/government says is ok.

After all, where did Jesus say to dress your best for Sunday Mass? For that matter, where did Jesus say to go to Sunday Mass? In the Scriptures he didn't. Therefore if the homily is limited to the readings then the laity will get the impression, & rightly so, that dressing your best and avoiding mortal sin like the plague are not all that important.

Until the bishops and priests begin to understand that proclaiming the Gospel means to catechize, then the Catholic Church in this country is going to continually weaken and eventually become irrelevant.

Proclaiming the Gospel does NOT mean commenting on the readings. Proclaiming the Gospel means to preach the faith, i.e., the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer. After all the Gospel is the source of all saving truth and moral discipline. And what is the "sure norm" for teaching the faith? The Catechism.

The devil himself could not have thought of a better way to undermine the faith then for seminarians to be taught that they are "proclaiming the Gospel" by doing a running commentary on the readings. After all, did Sts Peter, Paul & the Apostles go around reading Scripture when proclaiming the Gospel? Of course not.

They taught what Jesus had taught them, orally, the basics of the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer.

JReducation · #60 May 3, '08, 10:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOE OBERR

So long as priests think that proclaiming the Gospel means commenting on the readings of the day people will dress sloppily for Mass. We will also sin more, i.e., have abortions, commit adultery, not attend Sunday Mass, practice artificial birth control, etc along with other things the culture/government says is ok.

After all, where did Jesus say to dress your best for Sunday Mass? For that matter, where did Jesus say to go to Sunday Mass? In the Scriptures he didn't. Therefore if the homily is limited to the readings then the laity will get the impression, & rightly so, that dressing your best and avoiding mortal sin like the plague are not all that important.

Until the bishops and priests begin to understand that proclaiming the Gospel means to catechize, then the Catholic Church in this country is going to continually weaken and eventually become irrelevant.

Proclaiming the Gospel does NOT mean commenting on the readings. Proclaiming the Gospel means to preach the faith, i.e., the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer. After all the Gospel is the source of all saving truth and moral discipline. And what is the "sure norm" for teaching the faith? The Catechism.

The devil himself could not have thought of a better way to undermine the faith then for seminarians to be taught that they are "proclaiming the Gospel" by doing a running commentary on the readings. After all, did Sts Peter, Paul & the Apostles go around reading Scripture when proclaiming the Gospel? Of course not.

They taught what Jesus had taught them, orally, the basics of the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer.

I agree that we need better homeletics.

But I also agree with Benedict XVI when he says that every human being is endowed with the gift of reason. Therefore, every human being must take responsibility for his or her choices and not point the finger at what the deacon or priest did or did not preach at the mass on Sunday. That's why we have reason, to use it.

JR