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  #121  
Old Apr 28, '08, 5:56 pm
BarbaraTherese BarbaraTherese is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

I have read the document you quoted, Carole..........and even to such as me it is quite clear with simplicity of expression that there is no obligation at all on Catholics to believe in approved visions, private revelations and writings of saints. Such belief is not necessary to salvation and hence there is nothing sinful in not believing in them, other than perhaps if one is acting against one's own (God alone gifted) level of humility and prudence, and what it tells one, in the face of the superior wisdom and hence gifted insight of Church authority. And sin alone is offensive to God and to all in Heaven, united as they are to God and His Will.

The authority of The Church may declare that there is nothing contradictory to Faith in such which means that The Church is stating ........... (quotation taken from the document quoted by JoySong (Carole) :
Quote:
Cardinal Prospero Lambertini, the future Pope Benedict XIV, says in his classic treatise, which later became normative for beatifications and canonizations: “An assent of Catholic faith is not due to revelations approved in this way; it is not even possible.
These revelations seek rather an assent of human faith in keeping with the requirements of prudence, which puts them before us as probable and credible to piety”.
.........or in other words, "worthy of belief"..............but not necessary and mandatory to believe?

Blessings and with goodwill towards all always............Barb
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  #122  
Old Apr 28, '08, 6:06 pm
CradleCath CradleCath is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THurifer2 View Post
Good post,

I do wonder though about people who don't believe in them. If one does not believe in an apparition then the only option for them is to say they are false. Which leads me to wonder what one would think of a saint (hundreds of them) that publicly proclaimed Jesus or his Blessed mother were appearing to them?

The only real options for A person who doesn't believe in Apparitions has for such Saints is that they either are liars or Lunatics. I am not sure if the Church would canonize a Liar of such proportions and I am not sure if the church would canonize a Lunatic either....
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  #123  
Old Apr 28, '08, 6:47 pm
BarbaraTherese BarbaraTherese is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:

Originally Posted by THurifer2
Good post,

I do wonder though about people who don't believe in them. If one does not believe in an apparition then the only option for them is to say they are false. Which leads me to wonder what one would think of a saint (hundreds of them) that publicly proclaimed Jesus or his Blessed mother were appearing to them?

The only real options for A person who doesn't believe in Apparitions has for such Saints is that they either are liars or Lunatics. I am not sure if the Church would canonize a Liar of such proportions and I am not sure if the church would canonize a Lunatic either....
This is very true, CradleCatholic, and I am presupposing that this is your point in quoting THurifer above without comments of your own........and a supposition of his/hers. The issue does remain with absolute validity that The Church teaches that believing in apparitions, visions and the writings of saints canonized for heroic virtue is not essential to salvation....and hence essential to Supernatural Faith....rather worthy of belief and human faith and "probable and credible to piety”. " to quote Cardinal Lambertine (the future Pope Benedict XIV) and the document quoted by Joysong.

Blessings and always in goodwill...............Barb
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  #124  
Old Apr 28, '08, 7:03 pm
CradleCath CradleCath is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eilish Maura View Post
Do you know a book that deals specifically with her canonization?
Have you ever read a book that deals specifically with her life & her visions? Will you answer that?? I doubt it.
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  #125  
Old Apr 28, '08, 7:03 pm
THurifer2 THurifer2 is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese View Post
Incidentally THurifer, I think the answer is that we do have the freedom to disbelieve that the events actually occured..........while it would be foolish, and an indication perhaps of massive pride perhaps to stand against declared Church authority that they did in fact occur.........both humility and prudence would ask, I should think, that one recognizes the superior wisdom and authority of The Church. Be that as it may we are not bound to believe. And if I am wrong, then please someone correct me and with some link to an authoritative statement from Rome, not just a personal opinion or deduction.

I do not want to advocate something incorrect as in fact Church teaching.

Blessings and with goodwill towards all..................Barb

This thread has really made me think about things. I guess we owe that to Elish Maura.
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  #126  
Old Apr 28, '08, 7:50 pm
BarbaraTherese BarbaraTherese is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THurifer2 View Post
This thread has really made me think about things. I guess we owe that to Elish Maura.
Great point! It has really made me think things through too to a more logical conclusion than previously, and thanks to Elish Maura in raising the subject in the main . Joysong's (Carole) contribution has been very helpful to me too especially the document by Cardinal Lambertine (now kept in my files), amongst your own and others comments which have made me pause and think,.............The Holy Spirit is forever at work in us and often through others.

My personal conclusion is that if I do need to state Church teaching on the subject, to do so ..........adding that I personally do believe in apparitions, private revelations and the writings of saints and being the type of person that can be something anyway I hope of a credit to what I believe and those saints and Our Lady in whom I also believe and especially to Christ and His Gospel.........of striving to be so. My own personal accountability and responsibility has been highlighted through this thread.........glug!.....double glug and glug!

First Epistle of St. Peter - Chapter 3
Quote:
15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.
16 But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
Blessings and always with goodwill............Barb
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  #127  
Old Apr 28, '08, 7:58 pm
Eilish Maura Eilish Maura is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THurifer2 View Post
This thread has really made me think about things. I guess we owe that to Elish Maura.
<I just fell off my chair!>
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  #128  
Old Apr 28, '08, 8:00 pm
Eilish Maura Eilish Maura is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CradleCath View Post
Have you ever read a book that deals specifically with her life & her visions? Will you answer that?? I doubt it.
What do you doubt?

BTW - do you know of a book that is specifically about her cannonization?
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  #129  
Old Apr 28, '08, 10:10 pm
CradleCath CradleCath is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eilish Maura View Post
What do you doubt?

I doubted that you would answer my question: Have you ever read a book about St. Bernadette's life & visions?? Surprise me.

BTW - do you know of a book that is specifically about her cannonization?
http://www.catholic-pages.com/saints/st_bernadette.asp

An excerpt:
One hundred and thirty-two sessions were to follow, in the course of which appeared the survivors of the Soubirous family, a number of clergy, nuns and layfolk who had known Bernadette well. The Ecclesiastical Commission displayed prodigious activity, for by October 23rd, 1909, the Congregation for Rites was in possession of all the documents of the Enquiry.

At Nevers, the previous September 22nd, before finally closing the Informative Process, Bishop Gauthey had ordered proceedings to be taken, in due canonical form, for the exhumation of the body of Sister Marie-Bernard. In St Joseph's chapel there was profound emotion when the "confidante of the Immaculate," after being buried for thirty years and five months, was again brought into the light of day.

There was no trace of corruption. The flesh was parched but intact, and it had preserved its whiteness. Her head, which was covered in the cap and veil, and her hands, which were crossed over her heart, holding the tarnished crucifix and the rosary corroded with rust, were slightly inclined to the left. Her eyes, deeply sunk in their sockets, were found to be completely closed. Her lips were partially open, as in a smile.... The touching attitude of the little dead body, as Bishop Gauthey remarked, recalled that of the young virgins in the first centuries discovered in the catacombs.

On August 13th, 1913, Pope Pius X signed the decree for the introduction of the Cause. By that very fact Bernadette received the title of Venerable. Then was to follow under the authority of Cardinal Vico the "Apostolic Process" concerning her reputation for sanctity, her virtues and miracles. Delayed by the war, this did not open until September 17th, 1917, and was presided over by Bishop Chatelus, successor to Bishop Gauthey, who had no become Archbishop of Besançon. Two hundred and three sessions were required. At length, on February 11th, 1920, the resulting documents were lodged with the Congregation of Rites.

BTW., if you don't believe that the private revelation given to her by the Blessed Virgin was real, what DO you believe.......that she was a fraud & a liar?? That she was insane??

Last edited by CradleCath; Apr 28, '08 at 10:14 pm. Reason: forgot to include the link
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  #130  
Old Apr 29, '08, 12:51 am
BarbaraTherese BarbaraTherese is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

As an aside I have great devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes and in St. Bernadette...
....as a general comment...... if one does not believe it does not necessarily mean thereby and therefore that the person who does not believe thinks St. Bernadette was either a liar or of unsound mind. St. Bernadette was not canonized on the evidence of her visions (and attendant private revelations) of Our Lady having been real and from God and not imaginery, rather on her heroic virtue. I think a person under what The Church does state is in the instance of apparitions, private revelations and writings is quite free to exercise the option to believe or not without accusation or incrimination.

I just noticed another (there have been others) very active active thread that was locked by Klara Collins due to lack of charity between posters.........and Klara reminded all that charity between posters is a rule of CAF. Just a general reminder!

........be kind.................

God's rich blessings and with goodwill always..............Barb

Last edited by BarbaraTherese; Apr 29, '08 at 1:09 am.
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  #131  
Old Apr 29, '08, 9:08 am
THurifer2 THurifer2 is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese View Post
of Our Lady having been real and from God and not imaginery, rather on her heroic virtue.
........be kind.................

God's rich blessings and with goodwill always..............Barb
This is where things get murky. The post prior indicated that her heroic virutues consisted of "sticking" with her story.


I guess the real questio lies in the fact that if Mary had not appeared to Bernadette would she be a Saint.

But then again simply a speculation.
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  #132  
Old Apr 29, '08, 9:26 am
Joysong Joysong is offline
 
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Aw shucks, Thurifer,

Do you really believe the only heroism in her virtues was simply sticking to her story? That concept is definitely off-balance in a study of St. Bernadette's life, and we should avoid putting our faith in that idea.

Quote:
I guess the real question lies in the fact that if Mary had not appeared to Bernadette would she be a Saint.

But then again simply a speculation.
You are correct, that is simply speculation. Many canonized saints never experienced these, but lived the virtues of faith, hope, and charity to a heroic degree. This is what the Church examines, in extensive and minute detail. If you cannot think of any saints, write back, and I'll be glad to mention a few that are coming to mind just now.

Last edited by Joysong; Apr 29, '08 at 9:40 am.
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  #133  
Old Apr 29, '08, 10:02 am
Eilish Maura Eilish Maura is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CradleCath View Post
http://www.catholic-pages.com/saints/st_bernadette.asp

An excerpt:
One hundred and thirty-two sessions were to follow, in the course of which appeared the survivors of the Soubirous family, a number of clergy, nuns and layfolk who had known Bernadette well. The Ecclesiastical Commission displayed prodigious activity, for by October 23rd, 1909, the Congregation for Rites was in possession of all the documents of the Enquiry.
The bolded is what I would be interested in - do you know a book about it?
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  #134  
Old Apr 29, '08, 12:48 pm
Eilish Maura Eilish Maura is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Seeing 'issues' like this makes me more resolute to share that the Church does allow us to 'opt out' when it comes to private revelation:



New Book on Third Secret!!!
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=236331
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  #135  
Old Apr 29, '08, 4:29 pm
CradleCath CradleCath is offline
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Default Re: If you don't believe in approved apparition(s) are you denying the Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by THurifer2 View Post
This is where things get murky. The post prior indicated that her heroic virutues consisted of "sticking" with her story.


I guess the real questio lies in the fact that if Mary had not appeared to Bernadette would she be a Saint.

But then again simply a speculation.
I don't know. I believe that she would have been a saint (small s), but would she have become a cannonized Saint, recognized by the Church? I don't think so. She was a young girl whose family was extremely poor. They had no home & lived in an abandoned jail cell. There was not enough money for food, which is what took Bernadette to the place that would later become the grotto, as she was looking for wood that could be sold or bartered for food.

I do know that there had to be something special about her for Our Lady to appear to her with a message to give the world. Perhaps it was her determination to make her First Communion. She had to be able to read in order to do so & she often worked & couldn't go to school. (she worked both as a waitress at an inn & did farm work though she was reported to be small). She finally received the Eucharist for the first time when she was fourteen years old.
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