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  #16  
Old May 9, '08, 9:35 pm
DallasTexas DallasTexas is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin D View Post
I highly recommend you read some of John Salza's work, he used to be a high-ranking official in the Lodge, but left and became a KofC. He runs the website ScriptureCatholic.com, and has a special section for Freemasonry. Here's one of them: http://scripturecatholic.com/freemasonfaq.html
Paladin D,

Thank you for your post.

From what I have heard John Salza holds out to be a "high-ranking official" in the lodge. I don't remember what his rank was but I don't believe it was any higher or lower than that of mine.

We've had a pretty good discussion going on another thread about this subject. The below adress will take you to a post referring to John Salza's work.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...18#post3659418

His work has been referred to quite a few times. I haven't seen anything that I would consider valid or substantial yet.

Again, thank you for your post.
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  #17  
Old May 9, '08, 9:44 pm
jfr jfr is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

To dallas:
The following is an excerpt from a question and answer column in the Catholic Herald:
Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738, Catholics have been forbidden to join the Masons, and until 1983, under pain of excommunication. Scanning official documents, the Church has condemned Freemasonry and other secret societies at least 53 times since 1738, and has specifically repeated the condemnation of Freemasonry 21 times. (The Orthodox and several Protestant churches also ban membership in the Masons.) Confusion occurred in 1974 when a letter by Cardinal Franjo Seper, then Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was interpreted to mean that Catholics could join Masonic lodges that were not anti-Catholic, an interpretation widely advanced by the media; however, the same congregation declared this interpretation as erroneous in 1981.
On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The Churchís negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered, since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the Churchís doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church. Catholics enrolled in Masonic associations are involved in serious sin and may not approach Holy Communion." However, neither this declaration nor the 1983 Code of Canon Law imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics belonging to the Masons. While some Masonic lodges may provide great service to the community, when a Catholic understands this groupís history, religious pretense and anti-Catholic bias, one must question, "Why would a serious, practicing Catholic even consider joining?"

If you are a practicing Catholic and want to join a fraternal organization,please consider the Knights of Columbus.
  #18  
Old May 9, '08, 9:56 pm
Sir Knight Sir Knight is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasTexas View Post
I am a 32nd degree Mason, and I am a Catholic
How do you reconcile that with the Church's OFFICIAL position that Catholics can not be masons? One can be a mason or a Catholic but not both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasTexas View Post
There are many like me. There are many like me on CAF.
When I was young and the excuse that I used was that others were also doing it, my Mother would ask if I saw others jumping off the roof, would I follow?

I ask a similar question ... If you see others on the pathway to hell, will you follow? This is not a casual question. The church's position on this is very clear. Catholics who are masons do so under penalty of mortal sins.

What does the church teach about those in a state of mortal sin? If one dies with even one unrepentant mortal sin on one's soul, one is damned to hell for all eternity.

And, according to scripture, the church has the authority to do this because Jesus promised that whatever they bind on earth WILL BE bound in heaven and whatever they loosen on earth WILL BE loosen in heaven.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasTexas View Post
Neither we nor Freemasonry is anti-Catholic.
None of that matters. What matters is that you (and others) are in violation of church teaching.

As Vern explained in the other thread ... the church requires us to attend Mass on Sundays and holydays of obligation. If we fail to do so, we have committed a mortal sin which we need to repent of in order to be forgiven. If we refuse to repent, we remain in a state of mortal sin.

The church teaches that we are forbidden to be a members of the masons, if we are, we are in a state of mortal sin.
  #19  
Old May 10, '08, 4:37 am
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oneGODoneCHURCH oneGODoneCHURCH is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

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Originally Posted by DallasTexas View Post
mlldrl,

I apologize for making you angry; it was not my intention. Please let me know of the other Christian faiths that prohibit Freemasonry. The above provided list was something that I have accumulated through research I have done on this subject. I invite any valid additions.

In your previous post (see above), you stated that the Catholic Church was not the only Christian faith that prohibited Freemasonry. Now you're saying "discourage"--which one are we discussing? Prohibiting or discouraging?



Please elaborate.


I am a 32nd degree Mason, and I am a Catholic. There are many like me. There are many like me on CAF. Neither we nor Freemasonry is anti-Catholic.



Thank you for questioning my honesty, and thank you for questioning my intelligence. My honesty is something I very closely guard. In the profession that I have chosen, if I am not honest, I am nothing. While my intelligence is not at the level that I wish it were, I am diligently working to improve it on a daily basis.

Anyway, please feel free to question my honesty and intelligence all you want.

I'm sure that my level of intelligence does not hail in comparison to that of your--therefore I feel certain that you will wish to continue this dialogue.



I will begin following your orders when you walk on water.

Sincerely,
I will post this again as i guess you missed it the list includes those that discourage to out right ban membership in the masons:

From Wikiepedia:

A number of Protestant denominations discourage their congregants from joining Masonic lodges, although this differs in intensity according to the denomination. Churches that, in some form or other, discourage membership of Freemasons include the following:

* Many Protestant and Eastern Orthodox denominations have similar prohibitions for their communicants. In the U.S. the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, which have a combined membership of 3 million, and all other major Lutheran denominations warn against lodge affiliation, but not all enforce the ban. The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod bans membership outright. Among the other antilodge churches are the Church of the Brethren, Assemblies of God, Society of Friends (Quakers), Mennonites, Church of the Nazarene, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Brethren, Wesleyan and Free Methodist churches, and the Seventh-day Adventist Church. General Booth condemned it for the Salvation Army. The National Christian Association was formed in 1874 to coordinate Protestant opposition to secret societies. On a worldwide basis the majority of Christians belong to denominations that absolutely forbid membership in a Masonic lodge or similar secret society. It must be admitted, however, that many of these Protestant condemnations have never been enforced and are dead letters today. Evangelical Lutheran Synod,[12] Church of the Nazarene,[13] Wesleyan Methodist church,[13] Mennonites,[13] The Southern Baptist Convention and North American Mission Board, [14][15] Lutheran Church in America (for clergy only),[16] Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod,[17] Christian Reformed Church in America,[18] Church of the Brethren,[19] Assemblies of God,[20] Society of Friends (Quakers),[21] United Brethren,[22] Free Methodist church,[23] Seventh-day Adventist Church,[24] Salvation Army,[25] Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia,[26] Orthodox Church in America,[26] Romanian Orthodox Church,[27]Orthodox Presbyterian Church,[28] Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly,[citation needed] Free Church of Scotland,[29] Baptist Union of Great Britain and Ireland,[30] Presbyterian Church in America,[31] Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland[32]

Also It has been forbidden by I know at least the by Pope John Paul II and now Pope Benedict XVI for Catholic to belong to the masons.
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  #20  
Old May 10, '08, 9:00 am
mlldrl mlldrl is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

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Originally Posted by DallasTexas View Post
Thank you for questioning my honesty, and thank you for questioning my intelligence.
You appear to be ignorant as to the meaning of the word ignorant.

I did not question your intelligence. If I had called you stupid then I would be questioning your intelligence. Now since you say that you werenít aware of those other Christian bodies you must be ignorant. Someone else posted a long list with other Christian bodies who discourage/prohibit (use whatever word you want to use) their faithful from joining the Masons so if you read that list youíll no longer be ignorant on the subject. However, none of that matters really because if you are a Catholic the Church says you may not join. So if you really are a Catholic and really are a Mason then you are disobedient.

M
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  #21  
Old May 11, '08, 12:51 am
Paul G Paul G is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

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Originally Posted by DallasTexas View Post
There are a lot of organizations that have prohibitted Freemasonry the below list is not exhaustive.

Religions against Freemasonry:
The Roman Catholic Church
Jehovah's Witnesses

Organizations against Freemasonry:
The Nazis
Hungarian Communists
Soviet Union Communists
Spainís Dictator Francisco Franco
Italyís Dictator Benito Mussolini
All Muslim governments with the exception of Lebanon and Morocco
It appears to me, that anywhere that freemasonry has had any influence, democracy and free thinking has flourished, and may be the reason why democracy exists at all in the world today.

Paul
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  #22  
Old May 11, '08, 4:37 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

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Originally Posted by Paul G View Post
It appears to me, that anywhere that freemasonry has had any influence, democracy and free thinking has flourished, and may be the reason why democracy exists at all in the world today.

Paul
CHeck the Mexican government of the last century. Heavily Freemason influenced, not democratic or free thinking.
  #23  
Old May 11, '08, 11:34 am
JaMc JaMc is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasTexas
I am a 32nd degree Mason, and I am a Catholic

How do you reconcile that with the Church's OFFICIAL position that Catholics can not be masons? One can be a mason or a Catholic but not both.
You'd be surprised at how many Catholics are unaware of this position - I know of some men who are not only masons, but who are also very active within the K of C, on the mistaken assumption that the prohibition on Catholics joining the Masons was removed, either at Vatican II or by John Paul II (depending on who you talk to). The Masons do not care if you are Catholic, and the Knights do not usually ask if you are a Mason when you join.One solution would be to put a line on the Form 100 asking if you are a Mason, and reject those who are until such point they resign their Masonic membership, but, until that is done, unfortunately there will be quite a few who "slip through the cracks," and end up in both organizations.

Another reason why you may end up with Catholic Masons are converts who were already Masons, and never quit the lodge when they converted. This problem could be taken care of at the RCIA level - ask them if they are Masons, and inform them that they must end their Masonic assocition upon conversion.

In short, I don't think most Catholics who are Masons are thinking "Church law be darned, I'm joining the Masons anyway!," rather, it is a result of ignorance and lack of education - at least that is what I have seen.

James
  #24  
Old May 11, '08, 11:35 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

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Originally Posted by JaMc View Post
You'd be surprised at how many Catholics are unaware of this position - I know of some men who are not only masons, but who are also very active within the K of C, on the mistaken assumption that the prohibition on Catholics joining the Masons was removed, either at Vatican II or by John Paul II (depending on who you talk to). The Masons do not care if you are Catholic, and the Knights do not usually ask if you are a Mason when you join.One solution would be to put a line on the Form 100 asking if you are a Mason, and reject those who are until such point they resign their Masonic membership, but, until that is done, unfortunately there will be quite a few who "slip through the cracks," and end up in both organizations.

Another reason why you may end up with Catholic Masons are converts who were already Masons, and never quit the lodge when they converted. This problem could be taken care of at the RCIA level - ask them if they are Masons, and inform them that they must end their Masonic assocition upon conversion.

In short, I don't think most Catholics who are Masons are thinking "Church law be darned, I'm joining the Masons anyway!," rather, it is a result of ignorance and lack of education - at least that is what I have seen.

James
I agree. It is typically a lack of knowledge not a defiant spirit.
  #25  
Old May 11, '08, 11:48 am
flameburns623 flameburns623 is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

That having been said, take a look at this thread and at the thread started by Jimmy B. and take note of the several posters who refuse to concede the point that membership in the Lodge is forbidden by the Church.
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  #26  
Old May 11, '08, 11:50 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

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That having been said, take a look at this thread and at the thread started by Jimmy B. and take note of the several posters who refuse to concede the point that membership in the Lodge is forbidden by the Church.
I know. It is amazing. It is one reason I prefer discussing with Non-Catholics. I undestand why they do not follow the Catholic Church. Not to mention what is the common ground when the common ground is no longer common?
  #27  
Old May 11, '08, 12:02 pm
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

I'm sorry but I have to somewhat disagree with the previous 2 post. I was 13 years old When John Paul II became Pope in 1978, And I remember that not long after the before 1980 he reaffirmed the Churches position on not allowing membership in the masons. So I just don't buy it that people don't know. I will agree that a person who is a convert may not at first.

I know people who are masons and they are very nice men that I no no problems with at all (other than their being masons), the masons run a booth a the Fall festival in the city I live making the best glazed donuts I have ever tasted. That does not change that as Catholics we are forbidden to join. To do so is a sin. I also believe to remain one or to join after you know the churches stand is a moral sin.
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  #28  
Old May 11, '08, 4:17 pm
celticcrusader celticcrusader is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

I am happy to report as a member of the oldest Catholic fratern. org.... I know of no brothers who are Masons. if I did I would counsel them on thier error. They then would have to make a decision on which group they would be loyal to .
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  #29  
Old May 11, '08, 4:38 pm
Sir Knight Sir Knight is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

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Originally Posted by flameburns623 View Post
That having been said, take a look at this thread and at the thread started by Jimmy B. and take note of the several posters who refuse to concede the point that membership in the Lodge is forbidden by the Church.
... take a look at this thread and at the thread started by Jimmy B ... http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...03#post3663303
  #30  
Old May 11, '08, 4:56 pm
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Default Re: Why Catholics can be Knights of Columbus But Not Freemasons: A Place For Ponyman

Sir Knight: I read ponymans post, and my opinion is when he said he had a Phd. I think it stands for Piled-High &Deep. He was not eloquent in his writings for some one with higher education. If your wondering, no I am not KofC...I am A.O.H.
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