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  #1  
Old May 11, '08, 8:32 pm
Alethiaphile Alethiaphile is offline
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Default Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Decree of [Pope] Damasus, 382 A.D., as quoted in Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. I:

910u
[3] Likewise it is decreed: [N]evertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evnagelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter... [Matt. 16:18-19]"
**In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul, who contended and and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the City of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero- not at a different time, as the heretics prattle, but at the same time and on one and the same day; and they equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord, and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities in the whole world.** (My emphasis)

Is anyone here uncomfortable with:
1. The apparent dogmatic definition that SS Peter and Paul died on the same day at the same time, and/or
2. The emphasis on the "equal consecration" of the Roman Church by Paul
? Joe
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  #2  
Old May 11, '08, 11:43 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alethiaphile View Post
Decree of [Pope] Damasus, 382 A.D., as quoted in Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. I:

910u
[3] Likewise it is decreed: [N]evertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evnagelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter... [Matt. 16:18-19]"
**In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul, who contended and and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the City of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero- not at a different time, as the heretics prattle, but at the same time and on one and the same day; and they equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord, and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities in the whole world.** (My emphasis)

Is anyone here uncomfortable with:
1. The apparent dogmatic definition that SS Peter and Paul died on the same day at the same time, and/or
2. The emphasis on the "equal consecration" of the Roman Church by Paul
? Joe
You are quoting from a book. Please direct me to the specific Council or other document that Damasus is supposed to have written in 382 that contains the quoted passage.
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  #3  
Old May 12, '08, 4:37 am
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alethiaphile View Post
Decree of [Pope] Damasus, 382 A.D., as quoted in Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. I:

910u
[3] Likewise it is decreed: [N]evertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evnagelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter... [Matt. 16:18-19]"
**In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul, who contended and and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the City of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero- not at a different time, as the heretics prattle, but at the same time and on one and the same day; and they equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord, and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities in the whole world.** (My emphasis)

Is anyone here uncomfortable with:
1. The apparent dogmatic definition that SS Peter and Paul died on the same day at the same time, and/or
2. The emphasis on the "equal consecration" of the Roman Church by Paul
? Joe
We can take the "same day" thing with a grain of salt. It is, however, historically accurate that they both died during the same Neronian persecution.

There is indeed emphasis of the equal consecration of the Roman Church by both great apostles. This is evidenced firstly by the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul, celebrating their deaths on the same date (June 29). We do celebrate other aspects of St. Peter and St. Paul individually, but these celebrations (e.g. Chair, Conversion) are Feasts, which are of lower rank.

The hymn for June 29 (What Fairer Light) also clearly expresses the joy of the Roman Church over its consecration by the two apostles, and they are treated with equal importance as well.
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  #4  
Old May 12, '08, 11:19 am
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Note that Saint Peter was crucified while Saint Paul, a Roman citizen, was beheaded. Thus Saint Peter's death was quite prolonged while Saint Paul's was quick. This would seem to rule out simultaneity.
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  #5  
Old May 12, '08, 1:13 pm
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

I found the OP's quote at this website.

Regarding Paul and Peter being "equal" in authority....read on. Here's the rest of the quote starting where the OP left off:
The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it.
The same quotation can be seen over at Catholic-legate.

Also, the way I read the "decree" part only refers to the primacy of Rome....not the day Peter and Paul died.
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  #6  
Old May 12, '08, 1:44 pm
pprimeau1976 pprimeau1976 is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alethiaphile View Post
Decree of [Pope] Damasus, 382 A.D., as quoted in Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. I:

910u
[3] Likewise it is decreed: [N]evertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evnagelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter... [Matt. 16:18-19]"
**In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul, who contended and and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the City of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero- not at a different time, as the heretics prattle, but at the same time and on one and the same day; and they equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord, and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities in the whole world.** (My emphasis)

Is anyone here uncomfortable with:
1. The apparent dogmatic definition that SS Peter and Paul died on the same day at the same time, and/or
2. The emphasis on the "equal consecration" of the Roman Church by Paul
? Joe
I don't think that Pope Damasus was defining that Peter and Paul died on the same day. He was declaring that "the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evnagelic voice of our Lord and Savior." That is the dogmatic statement. Anything else after that are supporting statements for the dogma. He may have been wrong by saying they died on the same day, but he wasn't set out to define that as dogma, only that the Roman Church and its bishop is above all others.

He does use language like "as the heretics prattle" when he talks about those who don't believe that Peter and Paul died together. But, all that statement says is that heretics often deny this belief. It is not the same as saying that anyone who denies this belief is a heretic.
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  #7  
Old May 12, '08, 1:46 pm
Alethiaphile Alethiaphile is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
You are quoting from a book. Please direct me to the specific Council or other document that Damasus is supposed to have written in 382 that contains the quoted passage.
Sorry, I should have made that clearer. The Decree is attributed to Pope Damasus, as being issued the (local) Council of Rome of 382 AD. The specific passage comes from the "third part" of the Decree, section 910u.
I will also note that Jurgens is a Catholic author, and "Faith of the Early Fathers" is a work held in high esteem by Church scholars. We're not talking about some Protestant fundamentalist crank here. Joe
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  #8  
Old May 12, '08, 1:55 pm
Alethiaphile Alethiaphile is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by porthos11 View Post
We can take the "same day" thing with a grain of salt.
What, specifically, would justify doing so?
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  #9  
Old May 12, '08, 7:10 pm
Alethiaphile Alethiaphile is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcoPolo View Post
IAlso, the way I read the "decree" part only refers to the primacy of Rome....not the day Peter and Paul died.
Why, specifically, do you "read" it that way? The entire passage, not just the part referring to the primacy of Rome, seems to me to be governed by the initial phrase: "Likewise it is decreed". I see nothing coming after the mention of the primacy that indicates that the "decree" ends there. Do you? Or is perhaps your desire to exclude from the decree a statement you find problematic influencing how you "read" it? Joe
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  #10  
Old May 12, '08, 8:45 pm
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alethiaphile View Post
I see nothing coming after the mention of the primacy that indicates that the "decree" ends there. Do you?
Yes. Moving from the primacy of Rome to the date Peter and Paul died are completely different things. The latter is not introduced by "decree" but instead the statements about Peter and Paul's death are mentioned as grammatical clauses within the entirely different thought. If you read my post #5, you can see the emphasis here is on the primacy of Rome.
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  #11  
Old May 12, '08, 10:38 pm
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alethiaphile View Post
What, specifically, would justify doing so?
Because there is absolutely no theological significance on whether or not they died on the same day. That they both died in the service of the Roman Church, however, is significant.
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  #12  
Old May 13, '08, 4:39 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alethiaphile View Post
Decree of [Pope] Damasus, 382 A.D., as quoted in Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. I:

910u
[3] Likewise it is decreed: [N]evertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evnagelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter... [Matt. 16:18-19]"
**In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul, who contended and and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the City of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero- not at a different time, as the heretics prattle, but at the same time and on one and the same day; and they equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord, and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities in the whole world.** (My emphasis)

Is anyone here uncomfortable with:
1. The apparent dogmatic definition that SS Peter and Paul died on the same day at the same time, and/or
2. The emphasis on the "equal consecration" of the Roman Church by Paul
? Joe
As all Catholic teachings (Dogma, Doctrine, Disciplines) that we are required to believe/accept are summarised in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the above which you quote is not in the CCC then logically it is not a dogma and is not something we are required to believe (I am referring to the part about Peter and Paul dying on the same day).
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  #13  
Old May 18, '08, 2:51 pm
Alethiaphile Alethiaphile is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcoPolo View Post
Yes. Moving from the primacy of Rome to the date Peter and Paul died are completely different things. The latter is not introduced by "decree" but instead the statements about Peter and Paul's death are mentioned as grammatical clauses within the entirely different thought. If you read my post #5, you can see the emphasis here is on the primacy of Rome.
The "it is further decreed that" starts above the passage, and nothing indicates that the "decreed" status has changed. The language of the passage is dogmatic, not theoretical.
As to them being "completely different things", you might think so, and I might think so, but the question is whether Pope Damasus thought so, and the passage clearly indicates that he thought that the primacy of Rome and its equal founding by Peter and Paul, which included, in his mind, their simultaneous martyrdom, were inextricably tied together. I am supported in this by the following passage by a Catholic author. Note he also believes that the sentnece about Peter and Paul dying together are essential to Damasus's argument for the primacy:

In a decree issued in 382, Damasus categorically states that the holy Roman church has been placed at the forefront not by the concilar decisions of other churches... To prove this point, Damasus quotes Matthew 16: 18-19. Then he adduces the companionship of the Apostle Paul who, too, won the martyr's crown along with Peter in the city of Rome under the Emperor Nero. *Damasus inisists this that this happened at the same time and on the same day.* By their presence and venerable triumph they set the church of Rome at the forefront over the other churches in all the cities of the world. (citing Jurgens) (my emphasis). George Kaitholil, SSP, *Church: The Sacrament of Christ*, pp. 97-98.
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  #14  
Old May 18, '08, 3:25 pm
Alethiaphile Alethiaphile is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by porthos11 View Post
Because there is absolutely no theological significance on whether or not they died on the same day. That they both died in the service of the Roman Church, however, is significant.
See my response to Marco Polo. That you and most modern Catholics think is "absolutely no theological significance" doesn't mean that Damasus thought so. His decree indicates otherwise. Joe
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  #15  
Old May 18, '08, 3:34 pm
Br. Rich SFO Br. Rich SFO is offline
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Default Re: Dogma that SS. Peter and Paul died together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alethiaphile View Post
Decree of [Pope] Damasus, 382 A.D., as quoted in Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. I:

910u
[3] Likewise it is decreed: [N]evertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evnagelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter... [Matt. 16:18-19]"
**In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul, who contended and and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the City of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero- not at a different time, as the heretics prattle, but at the same time and on one and the same day; and they equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord, and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities in the whole world.** (My emphasis)

Is anyone here uncomfortable with:
1. The apparent dogmatic definition that SS Peter and Paul died on the same day at the same time, and/or
2. The emphasis on the "equal consecration" of the Roman Church by Paul
? Joe
There is no Doctrine or Dogma relating to how, where or when Peter or Paul died. I might add that the Doctrine is in regard to the primacy and authority of the Church of Rome, established by Christ.
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