Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Jun 10, '08, 12:15 pm
Howard Roark Howard Roark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 273
Default Communion/Annulment question on "living together

This question is secondary to the question "Can a person in an invalid marriage receive communion?".

The answer normally given is "Yes, provided they are not currently having sex (living together as 'brother and sister') and have gone to confession on the matter". CCC 1650 is usually quoted.

My question - Does that really make sense?

It seems that the canonical status of people who are not validly married is exactly the same as those who are...not married.

The advice of the Church to ANY other people who are not married does not consist of "living together" in any sense.

If you turned the question around - "Father, my son is living with his girlfriend, what does he have to do to receive communion again?" Father would (in a sane world) say "He must move out" and go one to quote solid Catholic teaching on the near occasion of sin.

This has bothered me for a long time, because in the typical parish, you always have several people involved in irregular situations who are playing the "living as brother and sister" game. RCIA classes always have a few of these.

It seems that it's a pretty poor witness to, on the one had, preach the absolute necessity of a valid marriage, then to actually counsel people who are not in a valid marriage to "live together".

This was really made obvious to me in the context of couples in pre-Cana marriage preparation in our diocese. They were counseled not to live together before marriage, and the better priests in the diocese told them "move out until the wedding". Same priest, same day, to a person seeking annulment in order to be able to regularize their current situation "live together as brother and sister".

Canonically, it's the same situation, right? Not a valid marriage = no sex.

Does anyone know anything about the "living together as brother and sister" thing? Where and when it got started? Any actual official teaching on the issue? Can anyone think of a good reason to recommend it, especially if children are not involved?

Thanks.
  #2  
Old Jun 10, '08, 1:20 pm
bilop bilop is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2006
Posts: 3,639
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
This question is secondary to the question "Can a person in an invalid marriage receive communion?".

The answer normally given is "Yes, provided they are not currently having sex (living together as 'brother and sister') and have gone to confession on the matter". CCC 1650 is usually quoted.

My question - Does that really make sense?

It seems that the canonical status of people who are not validly married is exactly the same as those who are...not married.

The advice of the Church to ANY other people who are not married does not consist of "living together" in any sense.

If you turned the question around - "Father, my son is living with his girlfriend, what does he have to do to receive communion again?" Father would (in a sane world) say "He must move out" and go one to quote solid Catholic teaching on the near occasion of sin.

This has bothered me for a long time, because in the typical parish, you always have several people involved in irregular situations who are playing the "living as brother and sister" game. RCIA classes always have a few of these.

It seems that it's a pretty poor witness to, on the one had, preach the absolute necessity of a valid marriage, then to actually counsel people who are not in a valid marriage to "live together".

This was really made obvious to me in the context of couples in pre-Cana marriage preparation in our diocese. They were counseled not to live together before marriage, and the better priests in the diocese told them "move out until the wedding". Same priest, same day, to a person seeking annulment in order to be able to regularize their current situation "live together as brother and sister".

Canonically, it's the same situation, right? Not a valid marriage = no sex.

Does anyone know anything about the "living together as brother and sister" thing? Where and when it got started? Any actual official teaching on the issue? Can anyone think of a good reason to recommend it, especially if children are not involved?

Thanks.
I imagine it arose from couples that had children in the invalid marriage. For them, it would not be nearly so easy to separate, as for a childless couple.

God Bless
  #3  
Old Jun 10, '08, 1:26 pm
Howard Roark Howard Roark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 273
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Yeah, I imagine the same thing...I also think that it probably doesn't make a lot of sense in that case, either.
  #4  
Old Jun 10, '08, 7:55 pm
bilop bilop is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2006
Posts: 3,639
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
Yeah, I imagine the same thing...I also think that it probably doesn't make a lot of sense in that case, either.
Well, they probably think it would be too traumatic to the children.

God Bless
  #5  
Old Jun 10, '08, 8:24 pm
rwoehmke rwoehmke is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 4,280
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

What one has to understand is that some couples marry invalidly and live together for years, have children, sometimes even teen age children, when one fine day one or the other or both decide they either want to come into the Church or come back into the Church. The brother and sister approach prevents what is a family, invalid marriage or not, from being torn apart with all the trauma that involves.

I am a close friend of at least two couples who were in this situation. They applied for declarations of nullity and went into separate bedrooms. It took both couples over two years to get such a declaration and I can tell you, the wait was a struggle for them. I was not privy to the information on their previous marriages. What would have happened if the decisions had gone the other way, I do not know, but I do know all four are fervent Catholics both today and while they were waiting.

Now with a couple who have lived together for a while with no children, or grown children, you could have a point. However there may be something to do with the specific situation that the priest knows and you do not. Young folks that are just shacking up and have no children, I would see as needing to separate. I think we are stuck with having to trust the discretion of the priest. They always know things about a couple that is just none of our business including whether they are living as brother and sister .
__________________
The Lord has been good to me. Blessed be the Lord forever.
  #6  
Old Jun 12, '08, 12:16 pm
migurl migurl is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 1, 2004
Posts: 403
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Well, I think that is a tough question to answer. I mean, how many couples are married invalidly and do not know it? I think that because they did not intentionally marry invalidly, the church gives them a break about living together until the problem is rectified. I mean, perhaps they have children and they want to remarry validly to one another. It would be odd for one parent to leave the home thus leaving their kids until the ceremony. But, abstaining from sex is something that is healthy (not to mention right in this case) and won't hurt the kids or raise questions among people who don't have any business knowing what is going on.
__________________






  #7  
Old Jun 12, '08, 12:39 pm
Howard Roark Howard Roark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 273
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

On this logic, then, I think I could make the case for any kind of co-habitation imaginable.

This is why I'm not impressed.
  #8  
Old Jun 12, '08, 12:49 pm
Contarini Contarini is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Posts: 16,450
Religion: Christian (seeking admission to the Catholic Church)
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
On this logic, then, I think I could make the case for any kind of co-habitation imaginable.
But isn't the simple sharing of domiciles wrong only because of temptation and scandal? It isn't intrinsically wrong. There is nothing contrary to the moral law in two persons of the opposite sex being under the same roof. So yes, depending on circumstances of course we could justify the cohabitation of two single persons of the opposite sex. It just takes a limited amount of imagination to come up with some scenarios in which this would obviously be OK. Suppose, for instance, that it was necessary to shelter a fugitive being persecuted unjustly (a Jew under the Nazis, say). Or suppose that two people were shipwrecked on an island where the only shelter was a single cave. Suppose further that for purposes of warmth they had to sleep together (in the literal, not the idiomatic sense).

All of this would be legitimate. But having sex with someone to whom you are not married would never be legitimate, no matter what the circumstances, because it's intrinsically wrong. I don't understand why this is such a difficult point.

Edwin
  #9  
Old Jun 12, '08, 1:17 pm
Howard Roark Howard Roark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 273
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Off-Topic - Edwin is still Episcopalian and still hanging around Catholic message boards? I remember this from *before* I converted...almost a decade ago now, I guess.

Some things really never do change.

On-topic - The issue is, of course, the near occasion of sin and whether anyone really takes that seriously.
  #10  
Old Jun 12, '08, 5:28 pm
Texas Roofer Texas Roofer is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 4,756
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
This question is secondary to the question "Can a person in an invalid marriage receive communion?".

The answer normally given is "Yes, provided they are not currently having sex (living together as 'brother and sister') and have gone to confession on the matter". CCC 1650 is usually quoted.

My question - Does that really make sense?
yes
Quote:

It seems that the canonical status of people who are not validly married is exactly the same as those who are...not married.
I am not sure the Church teaches that
Quote:

The advice of the Church to ANY other people who are not married does not consist of "living together" in any sense.

If you turned the question around - "Father, my son is living with his girlfriend, what does he have to do to receive communion again?" Father would (in a sane world) say "He must move out" and go one to quote solid Catholic teaching on the near occasion of sin.

This has bothered me for a long time, because in the typical parish, you always have several people involved in irregular situations who are playing the "living as brother and sister" game. RCIA classes always have a few of these.

It seems that it's a pretty poor witness to, on the one had, preach the absolute necessity of a valid marriage, then to actually counsel people who are not in a valid marriage to "live together".
I do not recall the Church teaching that either
Quote:

This was really made obvious to me in the context of couples in pre-Cana marriage preparation in our diocese. They were counseled not to live together before marriage, and the better priests in the diocese told them "move out until the wedding". Same priest, same day, to a person seeking annulment in order to be able to regularize their current situation "live together as brother and sister".
so what is the problem?
Quote:

Canonically, it's the same situation, right?
It would not appear to be the same why would you conclude the conditions are equal?
Quote:
Not a valid marriage = no sex.

Does anyone know anything about the "living together as brother and sister" thing?
Yes quite a bit what do you want to know?
Quote:
Where and when it got started?
It started when Eve was made, actual the sacrament of marriage would not exist for thousands of years!!!!
Quote:
Any actual official teaching on the issue?
I think it is reverse, what commandment are they breaking?
Quote:
Can anyone think of a good reason to recommend it, especially if children are not involved?
It turns out there is a lot more to marriage than sex.
Quote:

Thanks.
you are welcome
  #11  
Old Jun 12, '08, 5:51 pm
Howard Roark Howard Roark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 273
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

It started when Eve was made, actual the sacrament of marriage would not exist for thousands of years!!!!

Ummm...I don't think we're even remotely talking about the same thing. But, thanks for stoppnig by and adding some inscrutible commentary!
  #12  
Old Jun 12, '08, 6:17 pm
Texas Roofer Texas Roofer is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 4,756
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
It started when Eve was made, actual the sacrament of marriage would not exist for thousands of years!!!!

Ummm...I don't think we're even remotely talking about the same thing. But, thanks for stoppnig by and adding some inscrutible commentary!
Maybe you could list some catholic teaching how about one which shows marriage as a sacrament eariler? or one that shows a Catholic Priest marrying people before Adam & Eve or for that matter even show the first "Catholic Marriage"? The facts are the facts.
  #13  
Old Jun 12, '08, 7:17 pm
Howard Roark Howard Roark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 273
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Yes, the facts are the facts...you are discussing "natural marriage" versus "sacramental marriage"...different topic entirely.

Seriously, you're not on the same page.
  #14  
Old Jun 13, '08, 5:17 am
Texas Roofer Texas Roofer is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 4,756
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
Yes, the facts are the facts...you are discussing "natural marriage" versus "sacramental marriage"...different topic entirely.

Seriously, you're not on the same page.
Maybe, maybe not, man cannot make sacramental marriage. Marriage was not celebrated as a sacrament during Jesus time so was it? Did Jesus not walk the earth with multitudes of natural marriage, yet he did nothing to change that.
  #15  
Old Jun 13, '08, 8:13 am
Howard Roark Howard Roark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 273
Default Re: Communion/Annulment question on "living together

Yeah, and again that has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked...and I guess you've killed the thread by not knowing what we were even talking about. We're talking about people who are un-married, either naturally or sacramentally, and whether it makes sense to ever counsel people who are un-married, either naturally or sacramentally (becuase you can't be even *naturally* married to more than one person at a time) to live together in the same house.
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question for the liturgical experts tcraig Liturgy and Sacraments 9 Oct 10, '09 10:12 am
Children Baptism question... yessisan Liturgy and Sacraments 30 Apr 28, '08 1:05 pm
Question for Non-Catholics... homewardbound Non-Catholic Religions 101 Oct 23, '06 8:06 pm



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8570Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: SueZee
5243CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: James_OPL
4436Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3901Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3876SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3468Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: James_OPL
3318Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3237Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3172For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: SueZee



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 5:39 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.