Saints ranking vs. Angels rankings?

[SD Catholic]

Maybe this has been discussed before, but I just don't recall the argument... I can't remember where it is in the Bible (maybe someone can help), but I think I remember something about the Saints being made greater than the Angels and judging them. Doesn't it make sense that if an Angel can do all the things that it can do to show God's glory, that a Saint in heaven should be able to do atleast that and probably more? There are many other reasons to believe Saints hear our prayers, but I would think this would be a strong case also...

SD

[Trishie]

Hi, by the way if by saying the saints hear our prayers you meant "grant" our prayers, some people use the words intercchangeably, that isn't so. The saints intercede for us but only God grants prayers.


The Angels position is made clear in Paul's letter to the Hebrews chapters 1-2, if you like to look it up "The Son (Jesus) is greater than the angels The Three divine Persons ‘are the one and only principal of all things—Creator of all things visible and invisible, spiritual and corporal, who, by his almighty power, from the very beginning of time has created…out of nothing, the spiritual and angelic world and the corporal or visible universe. And afterward He formed the creature man, who in a way belongs to both orders, as he is composed of spirit and body.’’’
“The angelic orders were formed as “pure spirits.” The “devil and the other demons were created by God good according to their nature but they made themselves evil…through the exercise of their own will.” [Fourth Lateran Council V A]

The saints don't judge the Angels, their judgement preceded the saints.
Below, the Angels' judgement
“War broke out in heaven, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels, but they were defeated and driven out of heaven.” [Revelation 12:7-8]
“The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan, who deceived the entire world, was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him. Then I heard a voice shout from heaven, ‘Victory and power and empire for ever have been won by our God and all authority for His Christ, now that the persecutor...has been brought down.”
“Let the heavens rejoice and all who live there; but for you, earth and sea, trouble is coming—because the devil has gone down to you in a rage, knowing that his days are numbered.” [Revelation 12:9-12]

[Deidre]

SD,
I think the Scripture verse your are referring to is 1Corinthians 6:2-3.

"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

I don't think Paul was actually talking about intercessory prayer here, but I think I understand what you are saying. If the angels can intercede on our behalf, and the saints are higher than angels, it would make sense that saints can also intercede. Thing is, I don't know if non-Catholics even believe that angels can intercede! Maybe they do, but I think most stick with the 'One mediator' theory!

[SD Catholic]

Originally Posted by Deidre

SD,
I think the Scripture verse your are referring to is 1Corinthians 6:2-3.

"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

I don't think Paul was actually talking about intercessory prayer here, but I think I understand what you are saying. If the angels can intercede on our behalf, and the saints are higher than angels, it would make sense that saints can also intercede. Thing is, I don't know if non-Catholics even believe that angels can intercede! Maybe they do, but I think most stick with the 'One mediator' theory!

Thank you ... this is exactly what I was referring to. You understood precisely what I was getting at... I know there are places where the Angels pray for humans and do things for God for humans... so if Angels can do these things and Saints appear to be "above" Angels than it would seem logical that they could also do these things and probably even more.

I think it would be hard to deny that the Angels intercede for us, as God constantly used them to bring people to him, but you're right... I'm sure there are some that would also deny this.

SD

[SD Catholic]

Originally Posted by Trishie

Hi, by the way if by saying the saints hear our prayers you meant "grant" our prayers, some people use the words intercchangeably, that isn't so. The saints intercede for us but only God grants prayers.


The Angels position is made clear in Paul's letter to the Hebrews chapters 1-2, if you like to look it up "The Son (Jesus) is greater than the angels The Three divine Persons ‘are the one and only principal of all things—Creator of all things visible and invisible, spiritual and corporal, who, by his almighty power, from the very beginning of time has created…out of nothing, the spiritual and angelic world and the corporal or visible universe. And afterward He formed the creature man, who in a way belongs to both orders, as he is composed of spirit and body.’’’
“The angelic orders were formed as “pure spirits.” The “devil and the other demons were created by God good according to their nature but they made themselves evil…through the exercise of their own will.” [Fourth Lateran Council V A]

The saints don't judge the Angels, their judgement preceded the saints.
Below, the Angels' judgement
“War broke out in heaven, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels, but they were defeated and driven out of heaven.” [Revelation 12:7-8]
“The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan, who deceived the entire world, was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him. Then I heard a voice shout from heaven, ‘Victory and power and empire for ever have been won by our God and all authority for His Christ, now that the persecutor...has been brought down.”
“Let the heavens rejoice and all who live there; but for you, earth and sea, trouble is coming—because the devil has gone down to you in a rage, knowing that his days are numbered.” [Revelation 12:9-12]

Thank you for your response... fortunately, I understand the things you are saying... but my line of thinking was the one Deidre referred to... hope that helps with what I was trying to explain.

SD

[MarcellusW]

I thought a Saint is any creature in Heaven. For instance, the archangel Michael is referred to many times as St. Michael. And as far as saints being higher than angels, I thought there was only one such human saint, Mary. Arent the rest of us below angels in heaven? Am I going wrong here?

[EB4304]

Redeemed humanity is exalted above the angels. By virtue of the Incarnation, Christ lifted humanity into divinity. Therefore, when we're sanctified (and subsequently perfected in Heaven) we will participate in the Divine life, although in a very small way. We become "little Christs" to use CS Lewis' wonderful words.

So angels only have angel life, whereas redeemed humans will have human and divine life because of the nature of our redemption.

It's truly an honor and a glory that we do not deserve.

[SD Catholic]

Originally Posted by EB4304

Redeemed humanity is exalted above the angels. By virtue of the Incarnation, Christ lifted humanity into divinity. Therefore, when we're sanctified (and subsequently perfected in Heaven) we will participate in the Divine life, although in a very small way. We become "little Christs" to use CS Lewis' wonderful words.

So angels only have angel life, whereas redeemed humans will have human and divine life because of the nature of our redemption.

It's truly an honor and a glory that we do not deserve.

I agree... so by using these facts couldn't we deduct that a perfected human soul (Saint) would be able to intercede for humans as the Angels do/did?

SD

[beckycmarie]

Originally Posted by EB4304

Redeemed humanity is exalted above the angels. By virtue of the Incarnation, Christ lifted humanity into divinity. Therefore, when we're sanctified (and subsequently perfected in Heaven) we will participate in the Divine life, although in a very small way. We become "little Christs" to use CS Lewis' wonderful words.

So angels only have angel life, whereas redeemed humans will have human and divine life because of the nature of our redemption.

It's truly an honor and a glory that we do not deserve.

Exactly.

There is a really good podcast on this topic here:

Saint Michael and the Angels

Originally Posted by SD Catholic

I agree... so by using these facts couldn't we deduct that a perfected human soul (Saint) would be able to intercede for humans as the Angels do/did?

SD

Even the imperfect human souls in Purgatory can intercede for us.

Another podcast (I'm a big fan of these):

The Communion of Saints

[SD Catholic]

Originally Posted by beckycmarie

Even the imperfect human souls in Purgatory can intercede for us.

i would think so... and us for them.

God even allows the worst of angels (devil) to influence our lives... it only makes sense that he would allow heavenly Saints to intercede for us...

Does anyone know of any argument against using this reasoning (Saint higher than Angel)? Or any place that might have touched on it already or might be able to explain it in greater detail?

SD

ps... would a non-Catholic argue that an Angel just serves a different role than a Saint and that is why? which I would argue that in order for Saints to judge the world (1 Cor 6:2-3... thanks Deidre) they must know what is going on with it.

[SD Catholic]

Originally Posted by beckycmarie

Exactly.

There is a really good podcast on this topic here:

Saint Michael and the Angels



Even the imperfect human souls in Purgatory can intercede for us.

Another podcast (I'm a big fan of these):

The Communion of Saints

your podcasts may contain some of the information I was wondering about but I couldn't bring them up for some reason

SD

[Marc Aupiais]

Is that to say we will become God's in a sense, I have often wondered what is implied? I know we already are "Gods" over all animals, but can we ever become... hard thoughts...


based on reviewing the logic I've been thinking along concept- Deus est esse,

We could never replace Gopd, but what are we become aftert being born from this womb?

marc

[beckycmarie]

Originally Posted by SD Catholic

your podcasts may contain some of the information I was wondering about but I couldn't bring them up for some reason

SD

I wish they had transcripts for those. Perhaps you can get them on iTunes.