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View Poll Results: What is the role of government according to Catholic Social Teaching?
The government has no place being involved in social services whatsoever. 10 37.04%
The government should regulate social services to make sure they are safe and ethical, but not fund or provide services. 2 7.41%
The gov't should fund and manage social programs only the mentally ill, children, and invalids. 2 7.41%
The gov't should help anyone in need- the poor, the out of work, the sick- anyone who needs any kind of help. 11 40.74%
The gov't should manage everyone's basic needs-housing, food, healthcare-to ensure that nobody has too little or too much. 2 7.41%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old Jun 23, '08, 6:06 pm
stinkcat_14 stinkcat_14 is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

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Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
Theft is taking something that doesn't belong to you without the owner's permission. In an elected, representative government, we are giving our permission.
I would certainly agree here. After all, we all have the option of voting with our feet. There are plenty of countries that have low tax rates that we can move to, so the fact that we are staying when we don't have to reflects the fact that we are giving our consent to the taxation.
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  #17  
Old Jun 24, '08, 1:32 pm
Pius IX Pius IX is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

Quote:
The Federal Reserve is a cartel of private bankers, many of them international. There is nothing "federal" (meaning governmental) about it. It is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the American people. Congress unconstitutionally gave up its right to coin money. The Fed prints the money (a fiat currency without anything but thin air to back it up), then loans us our own "money" on which we must pay interest. The debt can never be repaid. They then instituted the Federal Income Tax to have funds to collect the interest. Check this all out at:

http://www.fdrs.org/banking_history.html
Oh I know. I was merely stating its name. Even if it were all government-based, I would still oppose the debasing of our currency. I support a full and 100% gold standard. (heck, id settle for a silver standard)

Just another long list of 'progressive' evil from Wilson. You're preaching to the choir my friend!
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  #18  
Old Jun 24, '08, 1:55 pm
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SpiritMeadow SpiritMeadow is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swan View Post
The gilded age was gilded only for a very few. And government was involved, indeed, the deck was stacked in favor of big business and against the little man. We had no worker safety laws, no child laborl laws, no decent housing laws, and as a result the workers were exploited, literally, to death. There was no unemployment insurance, no healtcare...you get the idea. Sure, some made fortunes then but it was generally on the backs of the others who were exploited. Food was often unsafe (ever read "The Jungle"), air and water were filthy. The reason we have the government restrictions we have now is because all these folks thought of was $$$. Since they were so short sighted and greedy, government steeped in to regulate certain areas. Now kids can't be forced to work until a machine rips their arm off, for example. You can be forced to work with asbestos. We have housing standards and product safety standards. Had the businesses taken care of these things on their own, government would not have needed to respond. But they did not. That is why government has the role it does. I suggest you read a little more about the plight of the urban worker during the gilded age and try to imagine how you would have liked it.

You are so correct. It is really was an amusing time in some respects. Big Business used two concepts to its advantage and the majority of the public suffered terribly. One, they introduced, via eastern intellectuals the concept of "survival of the fittest" . This idea which has nothing to do with anythng Darwin said, was pasted onto business, and basically said, left alone, the best will survive, meaning business. Then they added the work ethic which impressed upon the poor that anyone could make it if they tried. This gave them the hands off economy they desired and eliminated in them any requirement that they respond to their workers in any way other than use then as fodder. Today, we see that theme resurrected in the elite fundamentalism of the neo-cons who want a free market economy for exactly the same reasons, because it favors big business and assesses no responsibiity on them to society at large. So we have CEO making hundreds of millions of dollars while their companies and their workers lose everything. The rich continue to consolidate all wealth in their hands internationally and that group is shrinking, the middle class is disappearing and the poor working class is growing hugely.
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  #19  
Old Jun 24, '08, 1:56 pm
stinkcat_14 stinkcat_14 is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pius IX View Post
Oh I know. I was merely stating its name. Even if it were all government-based, I would still oppose the debasing of our currency. I support a full and 100% gold standard. (heck, id settle for a silver standard)

Just another long list of 'progressive' evil from Wilson. You're preaching to the choir my friend!
How would you deal with the problem of deflation?
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  #20  
Old Jun 24, '08, 2:04 pm
Pius IX Pius IX is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

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Today, we see that theme resurrected in the elite fundamentalism of the neo-cons who want a free market economy for exactly the same reasons, because it favors big business and assesses no responsibiity on them to society at large
bzzzt wrong! 'Neocons' (often misused) are almost all Keynesians, like you seem to be. They all support the New Deal, the Great Society, and just about every other big government program.

Very few mainstream groups favor a true free market, as I do. Do you really think Neocons (this would be those who write for the Weekly Standard, and not National Review) would get rid of OSHA? How about the FDIC?

'Big Business' is only evil when it starts to engage in corporatism. Simply being 'Big' (IE productive) is not evil.
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  #21  
Old Jun 24, '08, 2:07 pm
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

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Originally Posted by Pius IX View Post
Oh I know. I was merely stating its name. Even if it were all government-based, I would still oppose the debasing of our currency. I support a full and 100% gold standard. (heck, id settle for a silver standard)

Just another long list of 'progressive' evil from Wilson. You're preaching to the choir my friend!

GOOD FOR YOU! Now how do we get the rest of the world to understand this?

Blessings!
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  #22  
Old Jun 24, '08, 2:10 pm
Pius IX Pius IX is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

Quote:
How would you deal with the problem of deflation?
'Deflation', as the problem named by Chicagoites as the cause of the Great Depression, is one I disagree with. However, it depends on the sort of gold standard implemented. (There are 3 types possible - A total free gold standard w/o the Fed (pre 1913), a Gold Standard with the Fed (1913-1933) or a 'fixed' price of Gold w/ Fed (1933-1971).

Without veering any further off topic, right now, with the dollar as poor as it is, I would PREFER some deflation.
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  #23  
Old Jun 24, '08, 2:12 pm
Pius IX Pius IX is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

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GOOD FOR YOU! Now how do we get the rest of the world to understand this?
Not sure its going to happen, not while the welfare-warfare state is intact. Personal responsibility is only going to continue to decline.

As much as we, as Catholics, would like fairness, I dont prefer statism as the path to this.
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  #24  
Old Jun 24, '08, 2:23 pm
stinkcat_14 stinkcat_14 is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

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Originally Posted by Pius IX View Post
Without veering any further off topic, right now, with the dollar as poor as it is, I would PREFER some deflation.
I take it you don't have a mortgage, nor do you have any money invested in the financial services industry?
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  #25  
Old Jun 24, '08, 2:26 pm
Pius IX Pius IX is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

Quote:
I take it you don't have a mortgage, nor do you have any money invested in the financial services industry?
I do indeed have a mortgage. Notice my choice of words - 'some' deflation.

Please do not take my posts as an attack on you at all. I realize a more free market at this stage isnt popular.
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  #26  
Old Jun 24, '08, 4:38 pm
stinkcat_14 stinkcat_14 is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pius IX View Post
I do indeed have a mortgage. Notice my choice of words - 'some' deflation.

Please do not take my posts as an attack on you at all. I realize a more free market at this stage isnt popular.
I am actually a somewhat of a Chicagoan. My guess is that you are more Austrian. Hopefully the Chicagoans and Austrians can live together peacefully. I do like Hayek though.
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  #27  
Old Jun 24, '08, 4:45 pm
Pius IX Pius IX is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

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Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 View Post
I am actually a somewhat of a Chicagoan. My guess is that you are more Austrian. Hopefully the Chicagoans and Austrians can live together peacefully. I do like Hayek though.
You are 100% correct. I am an 'Austrian' so to speak.

You're right - Chicagoites and Austrians probably agree on about 75% of things related to economics. My main problem with the Chicago school is they cannot let go of central banking.
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  #28  
Old Jun 24, '08, 5:26 pm
Verisimilitude Verisimilitude is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swan View Post
The gilded age was gilded only for a very few. And government was involved, indeed, the deck was stacked in favor of big business and against the little man. We had no worker safety laws, no child laborl laws, no decent housing laws, and as a result the workers were exploited, literally, to death. There was no unemployment insurance, no healtcare...you get the idea. Sure, some made fortunes then but it was generally on the backs of the others who were exploited. Food was often unsafe (ever read "The Jungle"), air and water were filthy. The reason we have the government restrictions we have now is because all these folks thought of was $$$. Since they were so short sighted and greedy, government steeped in to regulate certain areas. Now kids can't be forced to work until a machine rips their arm off, for example. You can be forced to work with asbestos. We have housing standards and product safety standards. Had the businesses taken care of these things on their own, government would not have needed to respond. But they did not. That is why government has the role it does. I suggest you read a little more about the plight of the urban worker during the gilded age and try to imagine how you would have liked it.
The government created the AFL-CIO, meat-packers unions, carpenter unions, collective bargaining...? Really?

Ralph Nader with whom I disagree politically was a pioneer in product safety testing and requirements. Oraginzations like UL is a private orgainization that help people be safe with products on the market. The AMA, NICET, and many other private orgainzations self police themselves and do so better than any government oversight could ever do.

Companies want to sell food to people, not make them sick with it so they have proceedures to ensure food is safe in processing and cooking, clean resturants and storage. Times changed and society adapted, no longer feeling it neccessary or safe to have children work in mines and farms instead of going to school. Government didn't do that, people did.

If a milk producer sells bad milk people won't buy it if they can get good milk from someone else. What good does the FDA do you if Farmer John sells you bad milk? Why can't you take Farmer John to court instead of allowing the government to take him to court for you. Now Farmer John says he abided by the rules set by the government to provide safe milk- whether he did or not, but you can't sue the FDA for bad rules or bad inspections. For you the consumer it is a stacked deck.

The role of government is to provide a fair environment (court) for individuals (workers/consumers) to bring grievences against business owners that took advantage of them or treated them unfairly. No more- no less.
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  #29  
Old Jun 24, '08, 5:39 pm
Pius IX Pius IX is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

First off, 'collective bargaining' is a made up right. If the employer really wanted to, he could fire every union worker and hire non union workers. After all, he owns the property, not some union mob. That being said, I dont oppose unions per se. I work for a car parts supplier, and I have seen union thuggery first hand.

Quote:
Ralph Nader with whom I disagree politically was a pioneer in product safety testing and requirements.
Ralph Nader, whom I also disagree with but like as a person, had this odd idea that car companies want to kill their customers.

Quote:
If a milk producer sells bad milk people won't buy it if they can get good milk from someone else. What good does the FDA do you if Farmer John sells you bad milk? Why can't you take Farmer John to court instead of allowing the government to take him to court for you. Now Farmer John says he abided by the rules set by the government to provide safe milk- whether he did or not, but you can't sue the FDA for bad rules or bad inspections. For you the consumer it is a stacked deck.
Oddly you make a good point - abolish the FDA !
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  #30  
Old Jun 24, '08, 5:45 pm
bilop bilop is offline
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Default Re: What is the role of Government in CST?

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Originally Posted by Pius IX View Post
I do indeed have a mortgage. Notice my choice of words - 'some' deflation.

Please do not take my posts as an attack on you at all. I realize a more free market at this stage isnt popular.
Deflation is devastating to the economy. It causes the value of any debt to go up (in terms of purchasing power) causing massive defaults by individual and corporate borrowers. A mild deflation caused a 10 year depression in Japan in the 1990's. Deflation caused the Great Depression.

The problem with the gold standard is that it links the money supply to the amount of gold. If the economy is growing, and not enough new gold is being mined, it causes deflation.

This is why the 19th and early 20th century had such a boom/bust economic cycle. Since WWII, when the gold standard was effectively abandoned, recessions have been much milder and there have been no real depressions in the U.S.

God Bless
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