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  #1  
Old Jun 28, '08, 3:29 am
minutz3 minutz3 is offline
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Default Mass obligation..

Well, this is quite a big issue for me actually, about when it's "okay" to miss Mass.
Last Sunday I was with my family out at our summerhouse, and they really wanted me to stay there wednesday/thursday-monday, so we did that (and actually, I wanted to do that too).

Have I then committed a mortal sin?

Also, my grandmother brought up that my sister's boyfriend, who's orthodox, has been told (he was apparently in church every day when he was little, since his mother is very religious) that it's not needed to go to church every sunday, because "when you're with family - you're with God" or something like that, and that it's a whole other business if one is at a party.
I agree with that in some extent, but how valid is that according to catholic teachings?
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  #2  
Old Jun 28, '08, 3:37 am
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

The only time we're allowed to miss Mass is if we can't go - either because we're ill, or busy looking after someone who's ill or a child, or doing necessary work like in a hospital or for emergency services. Or because we're travelling and the nearest church is literally too far away to get to or doesn't have Mass at a time that we can attend.

If any of these apply to you, then you haven't sinned. Then again, since you had to ask, you obviously didn't know that we were required to go, so you haven't sinned - yet. Now that you do know, of course, if you miss when you could go it WILL possibly be a mortal sin.

And you certainly can't miss just because you want to go to a party - it's up to you to plan your going out so that you don't miss Mass. You have every other hour of the week to party if you want, it's not too much to ask that you give a few of your hours to God, who gives you everything, by going to Mass.

As for being with family being the same thing as going to Mass, absolutely not. Mass is where we worship God and receive (if we are in a state of grace) the Eucharist, the actual body and blood of Jesus. He is just NOT present in the same way with you just being with your family, neither is being in a family offering worship to God - probably not at all unless you sit around praying, and definitely not in the same way as Mass at all. And your friend who says this is definitely NOT orthodox.

And Mass is where we gather as a community to publicly share and express our Catholic faith, something that just isn't done in a family situation.
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Last edited by LilyM; Jun 28, '08 at 3:51 am.
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  #3  
Old Jun 28, '08, 4:16 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

I agree with Lily's comments. There has to be some serious reason for you to miss Mass and at face value being away at a summer house would not be a valid reason.

See Church teaching:

CCC 1389 The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season.224 But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily.

CCC 2042 The first precept ("You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor") requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.

CCC 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
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Old Jun 28, '08, 4:18 am
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
I agree with Lily's comments. There has to be some serious reason for you to miss Mass and at face value being away at a summer house would not be a valid reason.

See Church teaching:

CCC 1389 The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season.224 But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily.

CCC 2042 The first precept ("You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor") requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.

CCC 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
Thanks. I had edited my post to include those sections of the Catechism, must've hit the wrong button and not saved the changes or something.
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Old Jun 28, '08, 5:38 am
minutz3 minutz3 is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
The only time we're allowed to miss Mass is if we can't go - either because we're ill, or busy looking after someone who's ill or a child, or doing necessary work like in a hospital or for emergency services. Or because we're travelling and the nearest church is literally too far away to get to or doesn't have Mass at a time that we can attend.

If any of these apply to you, then you haven't sinned. Then again, since you had to ask, you obviously didn't know that we were required to go, so you haven't sinned - yet. Now that you do know, of course, if you miss when you could go it WILL possibly be a mortal sin.

And you certainly can't miss just because you want to go to a party - it's up to you to plan your going out so that you don't miss Mass. You have every other hour of the week to party if you want, it's not too much to ask that you give a few of your hours to God, who gives you everything, by going to Mass.

As for being with family being the same thing as going to Mass, absolutely not. Mass is where we worship God and receive (if we are in a state of grace) the Eucharist, the actual body and blood of Jesus. He is just NOT present in the same way with you just being with your family, neither is being in a family offering worship to God - probably not at all unless you sit around praying, and definitely not in the same way as Mass at all. And your friend who says this is definitely NOT orthodox.

And Mass is where we gather as a community to publicly share and express our Catholic faith, something that just isn't done in a family situation.
This is still very confusing, since I've talke to several priests about this matter, since it's the biggest issue I have, as far as I know, to truly live as a faithful catholic.

I really do love Mass, and I truly try to be there everytime I should, but my family is very reluctant to the idea.

It's also not that easy, since it does, from our countryhouse, take about an hour with car to get to church. I don't have a driver's license and I don't have a car, so should I then say that I won't go to our summerhouse at all then?

...and what about scouting hikes?
Often they are from friday till sunday, and my church only has sunday Mass in the morning.
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  #6  
Old Jun 28, '08, 6:41 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

In my opinion, missing Mass on occasion cannot be a mortal sin, even if it is done without a serious reason. Mortal sins are those sins that are entirely incompatible with the state of grace, with the infused theological virtues of love, faith, hope, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A mortal sin must violate a positive or negative precept, i.e. the thou shalts and thou shalt nots of the moral law.

Missing Mass on occasion for a just reason (not necessarily a grave reason) does not, in and of itself, violate the commandment to worship God and to keep holy the Sabbath. Both of these things can be done apart from the Mass. Also, omitting the worship of God or the keeping of the Sabbath from time to time does not necessarily violate the positive precepts, since these are not continually binding. One cannot continually, day and night, fulfill every positive precept in every way. So the commandments to worship God and to keep the Sabbath holy are not violated, at least not in any serious way, if a Catholic occasionally misses a Mass on the Sabbath or a holy day.

Also, the moral law applies to everyone, not only to Catholics. One would have to conclude that every non-Catholic, even devout Protestants, in the world is committing objective mortal sins every time they omit attending Catholic Mass on a Sunday or holy day.

There is a group of nuns in Australia who went out to minister to the aboriginal peoples there. They were ordered by the Bishop not to go out to minister unless a priest was with them, lest they miss Mass on a Sunday or holy day. They went out anyway, and did miss numerous Masses. They did not have to go out to minister; they could have ministered 6 days a week and gone back to a city to attend Mass. So this might not qualify as a grave or serious reason. They did the right thing, because they were imitating Jesus, and fulfilling the commandments to love God and neighbor.

Missing Mass when one is ill with a cold or fever or other relatively minor ailment is not a mortal sin. Yet this is not a grave reason, but only a just reason. Missing Mass because bad weather makes the driving somewhat more dangerous, but not very dangerous, is a just reason, but not a grave reason. No one claims it is a mortal sin to miss Mass for these reasons.

Thus missing Mass, on occasion, for a just reason is moral. One need not have a grave or serious reason. Just reasons would include taking a vacation or going on an excursion (hike, etc.) where Mass would not be available, spending time at a family gathering, traveling extensively for business, working at a job where the hours occasionally make it difficult to get to Mass.

If someone were to miss Mass for no real reason, just or grave, I conclude that this would be a venial sin. It is not incompatible with the state of grace to decide not to go to Mass on a holy day of obligation, or to decide to miss Mass once in a while on a Sunday. It is a sin to do so without a just reason, but not a mortal sin.
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  #7  
Old Jun 28, '08, 6:54 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
In my opinion, missing Mass on occasion cannot be a mortal sin, even if it is done without a serious reason. Mortal sins are those sins that are entirely incompatible with the state of grace, with the infused theological virtues of love, faith, hope, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A mortal sin must violate a positive or negative precept, i.e. the thou shalts and thou shalt nots of the moral law.

Missing Mass on occasion for a just reason (not necessarily a grave reason) does not, in and of itself, violate the commandment to worship God and to keep holy the Sabbath. Both of these things can be done apart from the Mass. Also, omitting the worship of God or the keeping of the Sabbath from time to time does not necessarily violate the positive precepts, since these are not continually binding. One cannot continually, day and night, fulfill every positive precept in every way. So the commandments to worship God and to keep the Sabbath holy are not violated, at least not in any serious way, if a Catholic occasionally misses a Mass on the Sabbath or a holy day.

Also, the moral law applies to everyone, not only to Catholics. One would have to conclude that every non-Catholic, even devout Protestants, in the world is committing objective mortal sins every time they omit attending Catholic Mass on a Sunday or holy day.

There is a group of nuns in Australia who went out to minister to the aboriginal peoples there. They were ordered by the Bishop not to go out to minister unless a priest was with them, lest they miss Mass on a Sunday or holy day. They went out anyway, and did miss numerous Masses. They did not have to go out to minister; they could have ministered 6 days a week and gone back to a city to attend Mass. So this might not qualify as a grave or serious reason. They did the right thing, because they were imitating Jesus, and fulfilling the commandments to love God and neighbor.

Missing Mass when one is ill with a cold or fever or other relatively minor ailment is not a mortal sin. Yet this is not a grave reason, but only a just reason. Missing Mass because bad weather makes the driving somewhat more dangerous, but not very dangerous, is a just reason, but not a grave reason. No one claims it is a mortal sin to miss Mass for these reasons.

Thus missing Mass, on occasion, for a just reason is moral. One need not have a grave or serious reason. Just reasons would include taking a vacation or going on an excursion (hike, etc.) where Mass would not be available, spending time at a family gathering, traveling extensively for business, working at a job where the hours occasionally make it difficult to get to Mass.

If someone were to miss Mass for no real reason, just or grave, I conclude that this would be a venial sin. It is not incompatible with the state of grace to decide not to go to Mass on a holy day of obligation, or to decide to miss Mass once in a while on a Sunday. It is a sin to do so without a just reason, but not a mortal sin.
Sorry but you are wrong. Missing Sunday Mass MUST be for a serious reason otherwise a grave sin is being committed. The CCC is clear and unambiguous on this.

CCC 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
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  #8  
Old Jun 28, '08, 7:07 am
minutz3 minutz3 is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

Also, from what I've gathered, it's "okay" to go on vacation a couple of times per year, and then it's "okay" to miss Mass.

But how many times?
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  #9  
Old Jun 28, '08, 7:10 am
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Verbum Caro Verbum Caro is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
If someone were to miss Mass for no real reason, just or grave, I conclude that this would be a venial sin. It is not incompatible with the state of grace to decide not to go to Mass on a holy day of obligation, or to decide to miss Mass once in a while on a Sunday. It is a sin to do so without a just reason, but not a mortal sin.
Ron,

I found this particular portion of your reply surprising. On what do you base your conclusion? My understanding is that your conclusion is directly in opposition to the majority of Catholic moral theology on this point. Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

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  #10  
Old Jun 28, '08, 7:22 am
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
In my opinion, missing Mass on occasion cannot be a mortal sin, even if it is done without a serious reason.
After reading a lot of your articles on your website, your stand on this surprises me because your views tend to be much more conservative. In any event, as Thistle pointed out, the Catechism does NOT support your view on missing Mass. As stated, missing Mass without serious or just reason IS a grave sin. I too must disagree with you and respectfully ask you to rethink your position.

Also, I noticed you posted your comments above not only here, but also on your website. I don't understand how you can publish these opinions in direct opposition to the Catechism. In charity, I must point out to you that leading others to sin is an occasion of sin for yourself as well. With your own website and members, you must be aware that others are influenced by your views, and after reading your site and comments posted there, I think many are greatly influenced. Please reconsider your stand.
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Old Jun 28, '08, 7:25 am
onetimeposter onetimeposter is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
The only time we're allowed to miss Mass is if we can't go - either because we're ill, or busy looking after someone who's ill or a child, or doing necessary work like in a hospital or for emergency services. Or because we're travelling and the nearest church is literally too far away to get to or doesn't have Mass at a time that we can attend.

If any of these apply to you, then you haven't sinned. Then again, since you had to ask, you obviously didn't know that we were required to go, so you haven't sinned - yet. Now that you do know, of course, if you miss when you could go it WILL possibly be a mortal sin.

And you certainly can't miss just because you want to go to a party - it's up to you to plan your going out so that you don't miss Mass. You have every other hour of the week to party if you want, it's not too much to ask that you give a few of your hours to God, who gives you everything, by going to Mass.

As for being with family being the same thing as going to Mass, absolutely not. Mass is where we worship God and receive (if we are in a state of grace) the Eucharist, the actual body and blood of Jesus. He is just NOT present in the same way with you just being with your family, neither is being in a family offering worship to God - probably not at all unless you sit around praying, and definitely not in the same way as Mass at all. And your friend who says this is definitely NOT orthodox.

And Mass is where we gather as a community to publicly share and express our Catholic faith, something that just isn't done in a family situation.
Is it biblically rooted that it is a grave sin to miss mass on sunday, or did someone make that decision one day? What year did this practice of it being a mortal sin start?
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Old Jun 28, '08, 9:38 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

The Catechism is not infallible.

My position is sufficiently explained in my post above. It is based on the teaching of the Church as to what constitutes a mortal sin. It is based on the teaching of the Church on positive precepts, which are not continuously binding (See VS on that point).

The above-stated objections of several posters ignore my theological arguments completely, and make no theological arguments of their own. Merely citing the Catechism is not a theological argument.

Regarding the example of the the nuns who missed Mass for lengthly periods of time to minister to aboriginals. The Bishop who condemned this practice and who ordered the nuns to be certain to either have a priest with them, or not to go out to the aboriginals to minister to them if they would miss Mass, changed his position and admitted that he was wrong. The nuns ignored his original order, since they were following the Gospel, which supercedes particular temporal decisions of even the local Ordinary.

So, if anyone follows whatever the Catechism says, ignoring Tradition, Scripture and other documents of the Magisterium, then such a person is not living the Catholic faith, but some new kind of religion based solely on the Catechism. Now I know from other discussions that some of the above posters do not take the Catechism to such an extreme, but there are some Catholics in the Church whose faith is based more on the Catechism than on Tradition, Scripture and other documents of the Magisterium.

But if you still think that I am mistaken, can you make a theological argument based on Tradition, Scripture and other documents of the Magisterium, without reference to the Catechism? Or if an idea is only found in the Catechism, and not elsewhere, is it a teaching of the Church?
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  #13  
Old Jun 28, '08, 9:45 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

Who here has not missed Mass,
either on a Sunday OR on a holy day of obligation,
without confessing it as a sin,
for any of the following just (but not serious) reasons:

1. a relatively mild illness, but not a serious illness
2. the need to care for young children, but it was not impossible to find someone to watch them for an hour
3. requirements of a job, even one not necessary to public health and safety
4. on vacation and could not find a Mass nearby
5. the weather was bad, and the roads were slick, but it would not be life threatening to drive

[Matthew 12]
{12:1} At that time, Jesus went out through the ripe grain on the Sabbath. And his disciples, being hungry, began to separate the grain and to eat.
{12:2} Then the Pharisees, seeing this, said to him, “Behold, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbaths.”
{12:3} But he said to them: “Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
{12:4} how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
{12:5} Or have you not read in the law, that on the Sabbaths the priests in the temple violate the Sabbath, and they are without guilt?
{12:6} But I say to you, that something greater than the temple is here.
{12:7} And if you knew what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would never have condemned the innocent.
{12:8} For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
{12:9} And when he had passed from there, he went into their synagogues.
{12:10} And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand, and they questioned him, so that they might accuse him, saying, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbaths?”
{12:11} But he said to them: “Who is there among you, having even one sheep, if it will have fallen into a pit on the Sabbath, would not take hold of it and lift it up?
{12:12} How much better is a man than a sheep? And so, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbaths.”
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Old Jun 28, '08, 10:14 am
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
....But if you still think that I am mistaken, can you make a theological argument based on Tradition, Scripture and other documents of the Magisterium, without reference to the Catechism? Or if an idea is only found in the Catechism, and not elsewhere, is it a teaching of the Church?
I admit to a great deal of ignorance, but I do try to learn and live the Catholic faith as best I can based on an ever growing knowledge from what I believe are reliable sources. The Catechism is a summary of teachings of the Church, so I consult it in areas of doubt. Not to be contrary, but I must question your authority to say it is fallible.

I am no theologian, but I assume you are indicating that missing Mass on days of obligation without just or serious reason is a grave sin is a teaching ONLY found in the Catechism and that it cannot be found elsewhere, in Scripture, Tradition or other documents of the Magisterium? Why is a reference in the Catechism insufficient?

Also, in my edition of the Catechism: "Imprimi Potest +Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger Interdicasterial Commission for the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Holy See reserves all rights to itself." Doesn't that make it an acceptable reference for Catholics?

Also, a quote on the back of my Catechism reads in part: "....The Catechism draws on the Bible, the Mass, the Sacraments, Church tradition and teaching, and the lives of saints...."

Are you saying the quote above, which is on the back cover of my Catechsim, is incorrect?
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Old Jun 28, '08, 10:33 am
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Default Re: Mass obligation..

I once missed mass because I forgot about the Holy Day, and then went to daily mass on another day.

And once I saw an injured pigeon and decided to bring it to a rescue place, that was kind of far away... and then when I got home it was already very late, I don't remember if I COULD have made the last mass or not... I may have been on the bus calculating and deciding I probably wasn't going to make it...

Long time ago.

Kathrin
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