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  #1  
Old Jul 1, '08, 6:37 pm
RWMorris's Avatar
RWMorris RWMorris is offline
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Default How can Abortion be Wrong?

Quote:
If current trends reported by the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) continue:
  • The percentage of adults in both countries who identify themselves as Christian will continue to drop by about 0.8 percentage points per year.
  • Some commentators predicted that adults in the Protestant denominations of Christianity probably became a minority sometime during 2006
  • Christians will become a minority in in Canada about 2023 and in the U.S. about the year 2042.
- http://www.religioustolerance.org/christ.htm
Christians are going to lose the battle against abortion because of demographics alone. Unless ... Christians can convince Americans that abortion is wrong using pure reasoning alone. St. Paul recognized there are people who are not familiar with God's Law, but still lived as though they are.
Quote:
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness...
- Romans 2:14-15
God's Law is pure, absolute, logical, and reasonable. It does not require Christians to convince non-believers to become Christians, or to believe abortion is wrong because the Bible says it.
Quote:
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
- Romans 1:20
Christians must prepare a defense of Life based on logic and reason that will convince skeptics, wiccans, atheists, deist, and secular humanists that, one, life begins at conception, and two, abortion damages women.
Quote:
... Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
- 1 Peter 3:15-16
Christians must separate fact from fiction and truth from opinion. Pro-Lifers must not argue amongst themselves, and most definitely not with their adversaries. Christians most present their reasons against abortion, not their faith and belief that it is wrong. Brute "force of belief" will not solve this problem nor change minds.
Quote:
The mind changed against the will is of the same opinion still.
- Benjamin Franklin
Surely, someone in the pro-Life crowd can present a reasoned argument against abortion. If not, the battle is surely lost.
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  #2  
Old Jul 1, '08, 6:51 pm
Mea Culpa Mea Culpa is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

How about - killing unborn babies is wrong.
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  #3  
Old Jul 1, '08, 6:57 pm
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RWMorris RWMorris is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

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Originally Posted by Mea Culpa View Post
How about - killing unborn babies is wrong.
You've convinced me. Only 200 million more Americans to go. Try harder.
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  #4  
Old Jul 1, '08, 7:14 pm
strngrnrth strngrnrth is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

There is biological activity in the sperm and ovum; they are living cells. The ovum has only the woman's genes. The sperm has only the man's genes. The zygote has the child's genes and these will remain the same unless tampered or damaged, which can happen after birth as easily as before. At the moment the genes unite, the child takes on life processes with their own rhythm and speed, separate from those of the parents. Within a few weeks the new heart has its own beat. What heart is this; whose heart is this? The mother's second heart? If so, it would pump blood according to her metabolism and supply blood of her type to her vital organs. But it doesn't. She has one heart; this heart is another heart. The father's second heart? Hardly - it isn't even in physical contact with his body. Anyone else's? There is no reason to think so. It is the child's heart. It beats when the new body needs blood, with the new person's type coursing through it. The little brain soon shows signs of activity. The little nerves show signs of sensation and impulses; the little legs and arms move. Are these the actions of anyone but the child? No. Does anyone think the thoughts or feel the sensations of the embryo? Yes -- the embryo does. No one else. What kind of thing has a separate brain with thoughts, separate nerves with feelings and separate blood running through separate veins, arteries and a separate heart? A part of another being? No. A being. A dead being? No. A living being. Then if the genetic code of the living being is human, is this a living botanical being? No. A living canine being? No. A living reptilian being? No. It is a living human being. When may a person rightfully end the life of a living human being? That is the question by which societies often judge one another. How will our society answer it?
I would stop there and let the other party reply before going on. It won't fit on a sweatshirt but it takes it apart step-by-step. Anyone who resists the obviousness of this argument is trying to avoid thinking about it most likely.
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  #5  
Old Jul 1, '08, 7:34 pm
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RWMorris RWMorris is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

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Originally Posted by strngrnrth View Post
There is biological activity in the sperm and ovum; they are living cells ...
Excellent start. Of course that "lump of tissue" is a human being. If it was not then by chance a woman might just give birth to a frog or a potato. As technology gets better, the longer a fetus can be sustained outside the womb. Sooner or later it will possible to fertilize an egg in a petri dish and allow the fetus to develop into a fully functional and self-sustaining child independent of the mother's body. Will this make the child any less human? Will the chances of it being human be any more or any less?
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  #6  
Old Jul 1, '08, 10:21 pm
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

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Originally Posted by RWMorris View Post
Christians must prepare a defense of Life based on logic and reason that will convince skeptics, wiccans, atheists, deist, and secular humanists that, one, life begins at conception, and two, abortion damages women.
It seems to me that the pro-life movement has been doing exactly this for some 40 years. Biologically it is certain that a new human being begins with the union of sperm and ovum at conception. And there is increasingly documented evidence that abortion harms women.

I don't think the problem is that these facts are in doubt. The problem is that the pro-abortion movement will do anything to avoid facing them. When pro-lifers talk biology, pro-choicers start to argue about when the soul is infused! Utter irony.
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  #7  
Old Jul 2, '08, 5:32 am
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RWMorris RWMorris is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

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Originally Posted by JimG View Post
It seems to me that the pro-life movement has been doing exactly this for some 40 years. Biologically it is certain that a new human being begins with the union of sperm and ovum at conception. And there is increasingly documented evidence that abortion harms women.

I don't think the problem is that these facts are in doubt. The problem is that the pro-abortion movement will do anything to avoid facing them. When pro-lifers talk biology, pro-choicers start to argue about when the soul is infused! Utter irony.
Unfortunately you are correct. There are those whose minds are so clouded they will not listen to reason. The "utter irony" you speak of must be reasonably refuted. As the pro-choice crowd argues its views, we must fight back with stronger logic, better arguments ... ahhh!, I'm late for work. I'll continue this later.
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  #8  
Old Jul 2, '08, 6:24 am
peregrinus_WA peregrinus_WA is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

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Originally Posted by Mea Culpa View Post
How about - killing unborn babies is wrong.
Yep. The Infanticide Genocide
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  #9  
Old Jul 2, '08, 9:11 am
neat62 neat62 is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

RWMorris;3874596

Quote:
Excellent start. Of course that "lump of tissue" is a human being.
We are all lumps of tissue, be it 7 weeks or 70 years.
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  #10  
Old Jul 2, '08, 9:22 am
ALLGIRLS ALLGIRLS is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

I think what must happen is that pro-life atheists-and they do exist (godlessprolifers.org, I believe may be their website) are going to have to step up and take the helm. They need to be the ones to speak before Congress and the SCOTUS about the issue. Then there can be no talk about "forcing religious beliefs" on anyone, and when pro-choicers start arguing about "ensoulment", they can reply "what soul? No one has a soul. We're talking about a human life that deserves the protections the rest of us soulless humans outside the womb have." End of discussion.

It's not like Christians are the only people against abortion. Conservative people of every faith generally are, Buddhists (who in most ways I wouldn't consider conservative) generally are, as they oppose killing anything, and, yes, there are some total nonbelievers who rightly see it as a human rights (for the unborn child) issue.

In Christ,

Ellen
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  #11  
Old Jul 2, '08, 9:36 am
mangy dog mangy dog is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

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Originally Posted by RWMorris View Post
You've convinced me. Only 200 million more Americans to go. Try harder.

Well, the debate club is going to have to understand that we (catholic christians) base all of our reasoning and logic on what you called "myth" and beliefs.

That probably means we're off the debate team.

After the Archangel Gabriel left her, Mary went to the mountainous region of Judea to Elizabeth's house. Travelling back then was done on donkey and or caravan. And it must've taken 2 or 3 weeks to get there. So, Mary must've been 2 or 3 weeks pregnant.

Upon arrival at Elizabeth's house Mary must've said something to the effect of, "Hello Elizabeth, its me Mary"..

As soon as the greeting reached Elizabeth ears, the child in her womb (St.John the Baptist) leapt for joy and was filled with the Holy Spirit (as well as Elizabeth) and she proclaimed "who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me".

Question: Was Elizabeth and John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit because of Mary's presence or because of Jesus' presence.?

If you say Jesus, you would be correct.

Conclusion: Life begins at conception!

"The fruit of abortion is nuclear war" - Mother Theresa of Calcutta
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  #12  
Old Jul 2, '08, 10:05 am
Starwynd Starwynd is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

That website has not been updated for several years now.
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  #13  
Old Jul 2, '08, 10:21 am
Fergal Fergal is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

I think that Psalm 36 holds the key here and since sin speaks to the sinner in the depths of his heart, this is where the battle will be fought and so prayer being the first and best of all weapons is most important in this battle.
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  #14  
Old Jul 2, '08, 10:22 am
neat62 neat62 is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLGIRLS View Post
I think what must happen is that pro-life atheists-and they do exist (godlessprolifers.org, I believe may be their website) are going to have to step up and take the helm. They need to be the ones to speak before Congress and the SCOTUS about the issue. Then there can be no talk about "forcing religious beliefs" on anyone, and when pro-choicers start arguing about "ensoulment", they can reply "what soul? No one has a soul. We're talking about a human life that deserves the protections the rest of us soulless humans outside the womb have." End of discussion.

It's not like Christians are the only people against abortion. Conservative people of every faith generally are, Buddhists (who in most ways I wouldn't consider conservative) generally are, as they oppose killing anything, and, yes, there are some total nonbelievers who rightly see it as a human rights (for the unborn child) issue.

In Christ,

Ellen

No, if anything, we should join forces. Why should we sit back like we don't exist and let the seculars get more power? No, the time has come for new tactics. Get mad, and let people, politicans, courts know it.
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  #15  
Old Jul 2, '08, 10:24 am
neat62 neat62 is offline
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Default Re: How can Abortion be Wrong?

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Originally Posted by Fergal View Post
I think that Psalm 36 holds the key here and since sin speaks to the sinner in the depths of his heart, this is where the battle will be fought and so prayer being the first and best of all weapons is most important in this battle.
True, prayer is the number one weapon, but that is not all. God also gave us free will in this world. It is high time we used more of it.
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