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  #1  
Old Jul 7, '08, 7:18 pm
Epistemes Epistemes is offline
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Default Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

So, I've been thinking about same-sex marriage a lot lately, especially within the context of why marriage is a sacrament in the first place, and I'm left with some very general observations and conundrums.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the essential definition of marriage as a sacrament involves a correspondence between social custom, religious tradition, and cultural integrity. The Church approves of hetereosexual marriage due to the fact that since the dawn of mankind man has always found his perfect complementary mate in woman. Even so, we cannot necessarily call this particular relationship "natural" since nature itself sometimes exhibits qualities of homosexual behavior, and homosexual behavior need not be stigmatized by such perverse labels as "unnatural" -- which, of course, is proven to the contrary. Regardless, throughout history, in all cultures, and among the various religions, man will typically seek out a woman, and the union between the two is highly favored. (The question could, of course, be raised as to how much of this perpetuity is the result of conditioned behavior which is therefore reinforced throughout time and consecutive generations, but such questions would be silly since basic biology proves the what primordial man desires in primordial woman: fertility.) Homosexual philanderings, while never uncommon in any time, place, or religion, are typically always shunned, punished, and deeply discouraged.

But why?

Yes, as stated above, man seeks out a woman for the privelege of conjugal union, and from that conjugal union produces the possibility for a legacy and a heritage to be built upon. Men simply must have sons, as history evidences, in order to be strong, honorable, and carry forth the family lineage. And their must be daughters to help produce more daughters and sons. All of this may sound archaic, sexist and derived from the Middle Ages (and by no means do I actually relegate women to such menial positions because I am speaking quite genrically and topically here), but isn't this because the core family structure has rapidly changed as a result of industrilization and economic convenience?

My point is this: Nine times out of ten, and really more than that, a heterosexual union is going to take place -- and for every homosexual union that does, in fact, transpire, there will be twenty times as many Catholic families birthing all across the globe. The threat of homosexuality is the annihiliation of a species; it is extinction. If God designed man to copulate with man, or woman with woman, biologically disallowing birth, then we would've been caput very early on. But is this seriously a valid threat? I, personally, hardly think so. The threat of human annihilation is much more likely to come from the far more statistically significant environmentally unfriendly hetereosexuals than from a dozen or a hundred same-sex couples uniting in whatever way they unite.
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  #2  
Old Jul 8, '08, 11:16 am
vppoole vppoole is offline
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

I think I see your point. How do homosexual unions pose an actually significant threat to society? Isn't society prosperous enough to the point that the infertility of the homosexual couple minority would not be a hindrance to the survival of the human race? Aren't the dangers posed by environmentally unfriendly heterosexuals actually more immanent and threatening to our survival? Actually, isn't the topic of gay unions really just a trivial matter to debate about?

If human beings could not lose Heaven, then I would say that the homosexual lifestyle is not a big deal. In your post, I am seeing just the emphasis on humanity's current welfare and no mention of any eternal consequences. Where's the big picture here?

Ignoring this, though, I still think that the increased attitude of acceptance toward homosexual unions (and some other lifestyles too) does indeed pose a legitimate threat to the survival of the holistic view of what sexuality is all about. How we survive is just as--if not more--important as whether we survive. You mentioned that homosexuality, despite its natural occurance, has been shunned in many cultures over many centuries. Thus a policy of adopting homosexual unions would be on the defensive and in need of explaining itself thoroughly, wouldn't it?

The question I have is, what validates the homosexual lifestyle? The occurance of other various natural sexual inclinations (i.e. pedophilia and incest) rules out doing just whatever one feels like doing. Is pedophilia wrong only because of age difference, or because of a lack of consent from the younger one, or is it more than that? Or is incest wrong only because it tends to create genetic defects with a brother and sister's offspring? Or, if adults consent to it, does that make it right? Then where's a defense against polygamy or orgies? If personal choice makes acts moral, then how could anything be bad? Maybe I have not talked to enough people, but I have yet to find a truly sound defense for the homosexual lifestyle. To me, the threat of same-sex marriages comes from the lack of principle to keep itself and other sexual confusions and abuses at bay. I guess one could ponder whether the human species could survive letting the reigns of sexual morality go, but that really does sound like a distopia to me.

Please do not misread me. I do not hate homosexuals whatsoever. I just think that our passions can pose a threat to our salvation, though, and lead us away from God, regardless of sexual preference. What do you think?
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  #3  
Old Jul 8, '08, 11:46 am
iaskquestions iaskquestions is offline
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:26-27)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9-10)

Sin is sin and no amount of rationalizing will refute that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epistemes View Post
My point is this: Nine times out of ten, and really more than that, a heterosexual union is going to take place -- and for every homosexual union that does, in fact, transpire, there will be twenty times as many Catholic families birthing all across the globe.
"Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?" (1 Corinthians 5:16)

Today, homosexuals might be a minority and it's not surprising that you don't see that as a threat. But scripture warns us and therefore we should not allow homosexual marriages. It will slowly increase and ultimately, the world will suffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epistemes View Post
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the essential definition of marriage as a sacrament involves a correspondence between social custom, religious tradition, and cultural integrity.
God is the author of marriage. It is he who defined it to be that way (Gen 2:24). Marriage is not a man made institution. Homosexual marriage is a serious violation of God's plan.
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  #4  
Old Jul 8, '08, 4:46 pm
Epistemes Epistemes is offline
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

Quote:
Originally Posted by vppoole View Post
I think I see your point. How do homosexual unions pose an actually significant threat to society? Isn't society prosperous enough to the point that the infertility of the homosexual couple minority would not be a hindrance to the survival of the human race? Aren't the dangers posed by environmentally unfriendly heterosexuals actually more immanent and threatening to our survival? Actually, isn't the topic of gay unions really just a trivial matter to debate about?
Yes, you read me correctly.

Quote:
If human beings could not lose Heaven, then I would say that the homosexual lifestyle is not a big deal. In your post, I am seeing just the emphasis on humanity's current welfare and no mention of any eternal consequences. Where's the big picture here?
Rather than tackling the consequences, I am attempting to explore the more pragmatic reasons why homosexuality and specifically same-sex unions are opposed and viewed as sinful. Perhaps I should have clarified my categorical thinking. The Decalogue (The Ten Commandments) refers to sins grouped as sins primarily against the community and sins against God: The first commandment is obviously a commandment to keep from sinning against God, whereas "Thou shalt not kill" is a precept against harming the community and society. All sins can be grouped into these two categories. I do not see same-sex unions as an offense against God, but I would be willing to hear any arguments to the contrary.

Quote:
Ignoring this, though, I still think that the increased attitude of acceptance toward homosexual unions (and some other lifestyles too) does indeed pose a legitimate threat to the survival of the holistic view of what sexuality is all about. How we survive is just as--if not more--important as whether we survive. You mentioned that homosexuality, despite its natural occurance, has been shunned in many cultures over many centuries. Thus a policy of adopting homosexual unions would be on the defensive and in need of explaining itself thoroughly, wouldn't it?
True, such a policy would need to be on a defensive, but would it take much for the advocates of such a policy to point out that menstruation was also once regarded as a social taboo among many cultures throughout history, not to mention many other things which were once relegated to the realm of taboo but are now socially acceptable?

Quote:
The question I have is, what validates the homosexual lifestyle? The occurance of other various natural sexual inclinations (i.e. pedophilia and incest) rules out doing just whatever one feels like doing. Is pedophilia wrong only because of age difference, or because of a lack of consent from the younger one, or is it more than that? Or is incest wrong only because it tends to create genetic defects with a brother and sister's offspring? Or, if adults consent to it, does that make it right? Then where's a defense against polygamy or orgies? If personal choice makes acts moral, then how could anything be bad? Maybe I have not talked to enough people, but I have yet to find a truly sound defense for the homosexual lifestyle. To me, the threat of same-sex marriages comes from the lack of principle to keep itself and other sexual confusions and abuses at bay. I guess one could ponder whether the human species could survive letting the reigns of sexual morality go, but that really does sound like a distopia to me.
I think it's interesting that you mention pedophilia and incest as sexual taboos which, without speaking in terms of ethical relativity, also find there place as generally unacceptable in different times and different places. Like hetero and homosexuality, both of these are also considered to be a "sexual orientation." Now, while I definitely have arguments against pedophilia and incest, and by no means do I support those practices, it does not seem to me that either one poses the same sort of threat that same-sex unions do. Now, it's true, if a full-grown male should have sex with a nine year old girl, the object of procreation will never be reached; but there are ages at which "pedophilia" is still technically possible all the while with the full possibility of procreation. I need not even speak of incest, which allows for the same possibilities.

If I decide to marry my sister, or a fourteen year old girl who has passed puberty, I don't see how I am "sinning," especially if there is mutual consent between my wife and me to bear children and raise them in accordance with what the Church says about marriage.

Homosexuality negates the possibility of procreation, but agian, I am left asking, "So what?" What if a few fall through the cracks?

Now, it's not to say I don't completely understand your position on sexuality and the human person and the consequences that unbridled sexuality might entail, but if the Church is so concerned about procreation, as is more than evident it is, and if for our own purposes we must survive, then that is definitely happening...even among non-Catholics.
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  #5  
Old Jul 9, '08, 9:41 am
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epistemes View Post
So, I've been thinking about same-sex marriage a lot lately, especially within the context of why marriage is a sacrament in the first place, and I'm left with some very general observations and conundrums.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the essential definition of marriage as a sacrament involves a correspondence between social custom, religious tradition, and cultural integrity. The Church approves of hetereosexual marriage due to the fact that since the dawn of mankind man has always found his perfect complementary mate in woman. Even so, we cannot necessarily call this particular relationship "natural" since nature itself sometimes exhibits qualities of homosexual behavior, and homosexual behavior need not be stigmatized by such perverse labels as "unnatural" -- which, of course, is proven to the contrary. Regardless, throughout history, in all cultures, and among the various religions, man will typically seek out a woman, and the union between the two is highly favored. (The question could, of course, be raised as to how much of this perpetuity is the result of conditioned behavior which is therefore reinforced throughout time and consecutive generations, but such questions would be silly since basic biology proves the what primordial man desires in primordial woman: fertility.) Homosexual philanderings, while never uncommon in any time, place, or religion, are typically always shunned, punished, and deeply discouraged.

But why?

Yes, as stated above, man seeks out a woman for the privelege of conjugal union, and from that conjugal union produces the possibility for a legacy and a heritage to be built upon. Men simply must have sons, as history evidences, in order to be strong, honorable, and carry forth the family lineage. And their must be daughters to help produce more daughters and sons. All of this may sound archaic, sexist and derived from the Middle Ages (and by no means do I actually relegate women to such menial positions because I am speaking quite genrically and topically here), but isn't this because the core family structure has rapidly changed as a result of industrilization and economic convenience?

My point is this: Nine times out of ten, and really more than that, a heterosexual union is going to take place -- and for every homosexual union that does, in fact, transpire, there will be twenty times as many Catholic families birthing all across the globe. The threat of homosexuality is the annihiliation of a species; it is extinction. If God designed man to copulate with man, or woman with woman, biologically disallowing birth, then we would've been caput very early on. But is this seriously a valid threat? I, personally, hardly think so. The threat of human annihilation is much more likely to come from the far more statistically significant environmentally unfriendly hetereosexuals than from a dozen or a hundred same-sex couples uniting in whatever way they unite.
You're right on what you say and I want to say that Gay Marriage has no place in society even though countries like The United Kingdom, Canada, Belgium, Spain, The Netherlands and South Africa and legalised gay marriage takes effect on New Years Day in Norway, and it's legalized in Massachusetts and California. It is painful to have to think about it. There are also the civil unions out there. Gay Marriage in society may hurt us in some way, what it is I don't know for now.
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  #6  
Old Jul 9, '08, 7:37 pm
BlestOne BlestOne is offline
 
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

When arguing this topic with secular society, it is often good to keep the rationale secular... not that I don't believe that God is the author of marriage and it is totally against God's plan to allow homosexual marriage... I do believe that... will get more into the reasons from a purely secular standpoint after I go pick up my kiddos... be back later
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  #7  
Old Jul 9, '08, 8:12 pm
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

ANother threat is Gods divine wrath and what happened to Sodom and Gommorah.

Ever since gay marriage was legalized in California there have been over 2,000 fires burning the state and has been seen as one of the greatest fires in all of Californias history. It is said to go through all of the summer. Funny this happened right when gay marriage ws legalized in cali and everyone was celebrating the proudness of their sins.
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  #8  
Old Jul 9, '08, 9:38 pm
BlestOne BlestOne is offline
 
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

OK I'm back... threatening a non believer with hell Peterskeys will do no good at all... they don't believe. Anyway, here are some things to ponder from a very non religious view.

Let's talk insurance... until this past century, nobody had healthcare insurance. Companies offered it to entice workers when they couldn't pay them more. But covering the worker wasn't good enough, Men who were the primary workforce wanted their families covered too. When the industries in the US began to offer insurance for employees and their families, they extended the benefits to the families because it meant that women could stay home and care for the children. Society benefits from procreation. It also benefits from making functional families... So now same sex couples want insurance benefits for their partners. Why? If two people cannot reproduce ever... why would one need to stay at home? They aren't taking care of their offspring so there is no need for one to stay at home.. It has become a status symbol in some homosexual relationships to be "kept" meaning that one partner works and the other doesn't because they can afford not to work.

Another point about insurance... if companies are forced to offer insurance for homosexual partners, the cost of insurance is going to skyrocket because of AIDS. The cost of care and medication to treat an AIDS patient is outrageous. Since the insurance companies will not be allowed to discriminate, they will be forced to raise rates... for ALL of us.

Let's talk taxes... we have married tax exemptions to help a family become secure. We have exemptions for children because the government knows it is in their best interest to ease the cost of children. Why should a gay or lesbian couple qualify? They aren't saving for a baby or more children... If the government can concede that these benefits were put in place to secure the future generations of society, then for what purpose would a gay couple have for receiving these benefits?

On the subject of taxes... social security... our future generation pays for the social security for our elderly. If we don't reproduce, we aren't producing workers to pay into social security. A homosexual couple isn't going to produce this generation of workers are they?

How about the idea that marriage is ordered to the reproduction and development of our species. It provides stability to the offspring and to society as a whole. Marriage has always been reserved for between a man and a woman (and God) and never between two people of the same gender until now... this is a slippery slope. Redefining marriage to between any two people opens floodgates to brothers getting married to get tax breaks and insurance benefits or sisters getting married for the same purpose... don't fool yourself into thinking this won't happen, it already has in Canada. Why stick with same species? A woman in Israel married a Dolphin...(but I think she was originally from Spain) or how about the Asian man marrying his pet dog? What next? Marrying your own child? Yep it will happen....

Do you see where this is going? It is going straight to an entitlement society... where people no longer work for the things they need, they depend on the govt or other groups to give them what they want and they never work for a darn thing.
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Old Jul 9, '08, 9:45 pm
Alverno Alverno is offline
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetersKeys View Post
ANother threat is Gods divine wrath and what happened to Sodom and Gommorah.

Ever since gay marriage was legalized in California there have been over 2,000 fires burning the state and has been seen as one of the greatest fires in all of Californias history. It is said to go through all of the summer. Funny this happened right when gay marriage ws legalized in cali and everyone was celebrating the proudness of their sins.
Good point! It is my understanding that we are treated in a corporate manner. I worry less about annihilation of the spieces sans procreation as I do about annihilation from all of our sins.
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Old Jul 10, '08, 5:11 am
Epistemes Epistemes is offline
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetersKeys View Post
ANother threat is Gods divine wrath and what happened to Sodom and Gommorah.

Ever since gay marriage was legalized in California there have been over 2,000 fires burning the state and has been seen as one of the greatest fires in all of Californias history. It is said to go through all of the summer. Funny this happened right when gay marriage ws legalized in cali and everyone was celebrating the proudness of their sins.
Yes, but isn't it funny that more innocent families are burning rather than the homosexuals or politicians? Seems God needs glasses.
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  #11  
Old Jul 29, '08, 4:11 pm
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

I wonder if that earthquake in L A has something to do with the legalization of gay marriage?

So far only Massachusetts and California have legalized gay marriage. The other 48 states haven't and I hope we'll still have a majority of the states that hold steadfast on this. I live in Montana and when why had a gay marriage issue to legalize or ban it, I voted to ban it. I don't want to see gay marriage in Montana. We here have too many of the fires of trees and I certainly don't want Maontna to sufferwhat California has suffered. Montana has a better quality of life more so than some parts of California.
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Old Jul 29, '08, 4:56 pm
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epistemes View Post
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the essential definition of marriage as a sacrament involves a correspondence between social custom, religious tradition, and cultural integrity. The Church approves of hetereosexual marriage due to the fact that since the dawn of mankind man has always found his perfect complementary mate in woman.

The purpose of marriage as a sacrament is sanctifying grace bestowed on both participants in order to spiritually deepen awareness of their relationship to God and family. Because sex plays an integral role in marriage, the couple are participating with God in bringing forth a human being with the image of God within to be loved and to know God's love and redemption.

Even so, we cannot necessarily call this particular relationship "natural" since nature itself sometimes exhibits qualities of homosexual behavior, and homosexual behavior need not be stigmatized by such perverse labels as "unnatural" -- which, of course, is proven to the contrary.

What is termed so-called 'homosexual' behavior in nature is a form of dominance and, as such, when displayed in the human specie, is morally wrong.
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Old Jul 29, '08, 5:17 pm
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetersKeys View Post
ANother threat is Gods divine wrath and what happened to Sodom and Gommorah.

Ever since gay marriage was legalized in California there have been over 2,000 fires burning the state and has been seen as one of the greatest fires in all of Californias history. It is said to go through all of the summer. Funny this happened right when gay marriage ws legalized in cali and everyone was celebrating the proudness of their sins.

I mentioned Sodom and Gommorah in another thread similar to this one and got chastised by a few forum members.

God punishes sin.

The Mother of our Lord warned us in the year 1917: That there would be annihilation of various nations if people do not turn from their sins.
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Old Jul 30, '08, 5:39 am
Catholic_89 Catholic_89 is offline
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

I will take a crack at it.

Firstly, there is nothing natural about homosexuality. Yes, I know you heard the scientists say that some animals engage in it. However, have you heard why they engage in it? They engage in homosexual acts when there is overpopulation or some need for that animal to be killed off. So they allow for some homosexual acts between animals to prevent more population. Why are they overpopulated? Probably because we messed up something in the ecosystem to get it that way. Hence, not as natural as you thought.


Next, some theories on the cause of homosexuality is the environment. (Some sociology now) Sociobiology in which we say there is a gene for this and that has not been proven and doesn't have many people convinced since there are many flaws in it. When a young man or woman is going through puberty, hormones are raging and they start feeling attractions. What kind? Well both kind actually. A young man will start feeling attracted to girls but he will also become very close to his male buddies. If during this time, he spends too much time with the guys, he can start to feel a stronger bond with them, which actually isn't sexual attraction, but because his body is figuring things out, if he associates the attraction with them, then we get problems.

In other words, both sexes will spend a lot of time with their own sex during teenage years, where they are devolping their bodies. If society starts to say to them, hey, being gay is perfectly fine, then guess what these kids are going to think? They are going to mistaken their bonding feeling for the same sex, with attraction. Or whats even worse is that they might just use the same sex as a means to simply have "easy" sex with no consequences of pregnancy as their hormones are raging and pushing them to do so.

And I have seen it. Go into a grade 7 or 8 class today, and I can almost guarentee you will find some kid saying that they are gay, bisexual, or that it is okay to be either. They say they feel confused, and that is exactly what happens when society allows for such things.


Just a little input. God bless.
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Old Oct 24, '08, 3:39 pm
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Default Re: Same-Sex Marriages and the Threat of Annihilation

I found a card from a couple of years ago that a church distributed writing to your Senator to support Senate joint resolution 1 and here is what it said:

Dear Senator_________________________________ ________________,


I strongly support Senate Joint Resolution 1, the Marriage Protection Amendment which will be brought up in consideration in early June. It would amend the U.S. Constitution to state that Marriage in the United States shall consist of the union of a man and a woman.

Marriage is more than a lifestyle choice. It makes a unique contribution to the common good of society by providing a way a man and a woman to bring children into the world and to care for them in the context of a loving committed lifetime relationship. I ask you to vote in favor of S. J. Res. 1 in order to permanently protect the institution of marriage.

Signiture_______________________________ _________________________________

Street Address_________________________________ ___________________________

City, State,
Zip_____________________________________ ___________


IT turned out it did not pass. legalizing gay marriage in Massachusetts and now in California
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