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  #31  
Old Jul 17, '08, 9:43 am
MarysRoses MarysRoses is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkropp View Post
Hello everyone,
I was baptized Catholic as an infant, but raised Seventh Day Adventist. I have now found my way home to the Roman Catholic Church.
.......

I would give you guys scriptural references but as they say, "Evangelicals know the address, but Catholics know the neighborhood." Ha Ha.

I love that saying at the end... lol.

I'm a former Seventh-day Adventist, now catholic!

Welcome to the forum and welcome home!

MarysRoses
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  #32  
Old Jul 17, '08, 12:23 pm
PaulDupre PaulDupre is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
"Those who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of The Lord's Day, on which we came to life through Him and through His death."
- Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians (110 AD)
Justin Martyr's description of the Catholic Sunday Mass in the 2nd century:

Quote:
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read. Then, when the reader had finished, the presider verbally gives a warning and an appeal for the imitation of these good examples.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers, and, as we said before, when our prayer is ended, bread is brought forth along with wine and water, and the presider likewise gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people call out their assent, saying the Amen. Then there is the distribution to each and the participation in the Eucharistic elements, which are also sent with the deacons to those who are absent. Those who are wealthy and who wish to do so, contribute whatever they themselves care to give; and the collection is placed with the presider...

But Sunday is the day upon which we hold our common assembly because it is the first day on which God...made the world. And Jesus Christ our savior rose from the dead on that same day."

- Justin Martyr, First Apology (160 AD)
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  #33  
Old Jul 17, '08, 1:15 pm
JKing JKing is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

All I can say is it's a good thing Jesus didn't say: "Go out into all the world and write down everything I have taught you so that everyone can interpret it for themselves..."

He established His Church.
He gave His Vicar the Keys--establishing a perpetual office
He gave His Ministers the power of binding and losing
He promised to sent the Holy Spirit
He promised to be with the Church until the end of time

Later, as the Church grew, SOME of the teachings and stories that were related about Jesus were writen down. Paul's letters were treasured in preserved. Eventually (end of 4th century) some of these thousands of writings were canonized.

For the first 350 years of the Church during often intense persecution the teachings of Jesus were handed down from generation to generation by word of mouth. The apostles taught ordained successors who ordained more successors.

If Jesus intended the Bible to be a how-to book of Christianity, he sure didn't do a very good job. And how did the Christians of the first few centuries get by without it? If the Bible is the How-To Book of Christianity, how come there are so many different versions of it today. An excellent example is this very thread. Some--going by Scripture--believe Christians should worship God on Saturday. Others--going by Scripture--believe Christians should worship God on Sunday. The Church--going by the teaching of Jesus--believes Christians should worship God always and provide the Mass daily and require Mass attendance on Sunday.

Don't quote Scripture to me unless you acknowledge the source of its authority and purpose. The fact is, without the Catholic Church, you wouldn't even have a scripture to quote. So saying Scripture proves Catholicism wrong is like saying that the owner's manual for my vehicle proves GM wrong on the opperation of the car they made and sold to me.

My two cents.

Jeff
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  #34  
Old Jul 17, '08, 1:38 pm
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by runandsew View Post
If the dead know nothing then why did Jesus preach to the dead, and why are the elders in heaven presenting the bowls of incense which is the prayers of the saints to God, and why in the parable of the rich man and Lazaras, are both the rich man and Lazaras both conscience, and why do Moses and Elijah both talking to Jesus even though they have been dead for well over 1,000 years?

As for no scriptural evidence for Jesus resting on the Sabbath, you just stated in your previous post that He did rest on the Sabbath.

So to support your theology, you claim something to be true that in not taught in scripture (Jesus resting), and you claim another thing which the New Testament shows not to be true (The dead not knowing anything).

I hope you will have a good explaination later, because you are not off to a good start.
I respectfully say as this thread concerns that of the Sabbath and Sunday worship I will not post a response here but will start a new thread to respond.
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  #35  
Old Jul 17, '08, 1:42 pm
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peary View Post
That is not true. The Lord's Day is observed on the first day of the week (Sunday) because that is the day of Resurrection. the Bible makes this clear in several places. Christians worship on the Lord's Day. We are not under the Old Covenant but the New, and we are not Jews.
There is a lot here that needs to be addressed and this may take some time so please be patient. I will be breaking this up into bits as the following takes up four pages of text. Again, I ask that you look the things up in the scriptures for yourself to prove them. I ask only the consideration be made and we continue discussions in a calm and loving manner, with out accusation or condemnation.

“This is not true.” Historical records and statements made by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church do support the statement that I made. Following are a few of those statements for you to research yourselves. Interpret them as you will.

William L. Gildea, “Paschale Gaudium,” in “The Catholic World” 58, March 1894
“The [Catholic] Church took the pagan buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon,[the Roman] temple to all the gods, and made it scared to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom. Balder the beautiful: the White God, the old Scandinavians called him. The sun has worshipers at this very hour in Persia and other lands...Hence the Church would seem to have said ‘Keep that old, pagan name. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.’ And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus. The sun is a fitting emblem of Jesus. The Fathers often compared Jesus to the sun; as they compared Mary to the moon.”

Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900 “Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From beginning to end of scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.

John Gilmary Shea, in the “American Catholic Quarterly Review,” January 1883 “Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the [Roman Catholic] Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.”

Priest Brady, in an address, reported to the Elizabeth, N.J. “News” of March 18, 1903 “It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church."

Stephan Keenan, “A Doctrinal Catechism” Pg 176 “Ques.-Have you any other way of proving that the [Catholic] Church has power to institute festivals of precept [to command holy days]?”
Ans. –Had she not the power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her: She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”


It would seem your claim that the “Bible makes it clear” that you worship on the First Day of the week because of the Resurrection has no foundation.

Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920-- “If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."

There is more that I could produce, please take these and do some research for yourselves. Is Sunday really in honor of the Resurrection or just a continuation of some other form of worship?
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  #36  
Old Jul 17, '08, 1:48 pm
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peary View Post
That is not true. The Lord's Day is observed on the first day of the week (Sunday) because that is the day of Resurrection. the Bible makes this clear in several places. Christians worship on the Lord's Day. We are not under the Old Covenant but the New, and we are not Jews.

“We are not under the Old Covenant but the New.”

I have no problem with this statement. We are under the New Covenant. But I think what you fail to understand is when the New Covenant was promised and what the covenant entails. Once again, let’s look to the Word to get a clearer picture of the “New Covenant”

Jeremaih 31:31-34 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord; But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord : for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will remember their sin no more.”

This is the very same “New Covenant” that is stated in Hebrews 8.

Hebrews 8:6-13 “But now hath He hath obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish.”

First, the New Covenant was promised in the Old Testament, before Christ. Therefore, when God says he will “put them (his laws) in their minds and write them on their hearts”, he is stating that that we will learn to keep them more faithfully, he didn’t say he was going to do away with any of them, including the Sabbath commandment. Nor did he say he was going to change it. The Sabbath commandment is still part of the New Covenant.

Second, and this will go along with the last part of your statement, “we are not Jews.”. Read it again, the New Covenant promise. Who was it written to? It wasn’t to the Gentiles; it was to Israel, and Judah, JEWS. So something had to happen for Gentiles to be included in the promise. As this is the Pauline Jubilee Year I refer to what Paul says concerning a Christian’s relationship with the Jew.

Romans 2:28 “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Peter himself said that some of the things that Paul wrote were difficult to understand. I hope I get this right. The scripture is way to long to post but I will give the Chapters and verses so you can look them up yourselves.

Romans 9. Read the whole thing. Basically he is speaking of our adoption into the promises of Abraham, the father of Jacob and ultimately of the whole nation of Israel. Paul also exhorts the Gentiles of that time, and it pertains to us in this day, not to think of themselves as better than the Jews just because they now have obtained God’s grace and have been “grafted” into the vine, God’s people, for as the Jews, they could just as easily be pruned away and the Jews regrafted.

Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

Christians are now brothers and sisters of God’s chosen people. Remember also, for the first seven years of the ministry of Christ and the Apostles only the Jews were approached, many of these coming to the truth and many were heads of separate churches throughout the Roman Empire. The promises were first given to the Jews. The Church was at one time an exclusively held Jewish organization. Only after Peter and Paul were sent to the Gentiles was the name Christian applied to the Church. The Church, after the Apostles had all died off and persecution began, tried to distance itself from the Jews when they began to rebel against Roman rule. But in truth, the Church still has a Jewish heritage, the evidence is that we use a book predominately written by Jews, we worship a Jewish God and we have a Jewish Savior, who himself was born a Jew. I, for one, am happy to an adopted Jew.
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  #37  
Old Jul 17, '08, 1:51 pm
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
{snip} There is more that I could produce, please take these and do some research for yourselves. Is Sunday really in honor of the Resurrection or just a continuation of some other form of worship?
Despite all that your references state, the direct answer to your question is contained in the CCC:
Quote:
2175Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

107 Cf. 1 Cor 10:11.
108 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. 9,1:SCh 10,88.
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  #38  
Old Jul 17, '08, 2:19 pm
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv View Post
Despite all that your references state, the direct answer to your question is contained in the CCC:
Doesn't look as if I can access your reference as the IP address cannot be found. But as it appears to be from the Catholic Church Catacism I'll take your word for it. I will refer you to my comments concerning "Tradition" in the thread "The State of the Dead." If your tradition or doctrine do not conform to Apostlic teachings as laid out in the Letters to the churches and as taught by Christ then they are of non-effect.

Peace be unto you.
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  #39  
Old Jul 17, '08, 2:40 pm
peary peary is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
There is a lot here that needs to be addressed and this may take some time so please be patient. I will be breaking this up into bits as the following takes up four pages of text. Again, I ask that you look the things up in the scriptures for yourself to prove them. I ask only the consideration be made and we continue discussions in a calm and loving manner, with out accusation or condemnation.

“This is not true.” Historical records and statements made by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church do support the statement that I made. Following are a few of those statements for you to research yourselves. Interpret them as you will.

William L. Gildea, “Paschale Gaudium,” in “The Catholic World” 58, March 1894
“The [Catholic] Church took the pagan buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon,[the Roman] temple to all the gods, and made it scared to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom. Balder the beautiful: the White God, the old Scandinavians called him. The sun has worshipers at this very hour in Persia and other lands...Hence the Church would seem to have said ‘Keep that old, pagan name. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.’ And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus. The sun is a fitting emblem of Jesus. The Fathers often compared Jesus to the sun; as they compared Mary to the moon.”

Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900 “Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From beginning to end of scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.

John Gilmary Shea, in the “American Catholic Quarterly Review,” January 1883 “Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the [Roman Catholic] Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.”

Priest Brady, in an address, reported to the Elizabeth, N.J. “News” of March 18, 1903 “It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church."

Stephan Keenan, “A Doctrinal Catechism” Pg 176 “Ques.-Have you any other way of proving that the [Catholic] Church has power to institute festivals of precept [to command holy days]?”
Ans. –Had she not the power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her: She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”


It would seem your claim that the “Bible makes it clear” that you worship on the First Day of the week because of the Resurrection has no foundation.

Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920-- “If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."

There is more that I could produce, please take these and do some research for yourselves. Is Sunday really in honor of the Resurrection or just a continuation of some other form of worship?
It makes no difference. We have writings from early Christian bishops from the first and second centuries who have clarified this for us already and shows us that the early Christians had already
been worshipping on Sunday, the first day of the week, since Paul's day. Save yourself the trouble.

You need to figure out for yourself why the Sabbath was changed by the apostles.
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  #40  
Old Jul 17, '08, 2:42 pm
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
Doesn't look as if I can access your reference as the IP address cannot be found. But as it appears to be from the Catholic Church Catacism I'll take your word for it. I will refer you to my comments concerning "Tradition" in the thread "The State of the Dead." If your tradition or doctrine do not conform to Apostlic teachings as laid out in the Letters to the churches and as taught by Christ then they are of non-effect.

Peace be unto you.
Since the Church decided which "Letters to the churches" were inspired and which one were not and the information provided is the definitive teaching of the same Church (the Catechism), the teachings are clearly in full effect.
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  #41  
Old Jul 22, '08, 1:04 am
joluwayomi joluwayomi is offline
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Wink Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Rom 2 28-29..We are then 'Spiritual Jews' if we believe God wrote
the ten commandments with His own finger on the stone tablets
for the Children of Isreal.
Heb 8 7-10 The same ten commandments are now placed in our
hearts, they are no longer something we are trying to do or attaine
as physical Isreal did and failed.
Some people that observe Saturdays as Sabath day do not follow the 24 hours clock.
When Jesus was by Jacob Well he told the woman that a time
is coming that "those that worship him we need to worship him
in Spirit and truth."
If you are not Sunday Sunday Christians...you do not pray only
on Sunday. You talk to God daily.
Sabath is made for man not man for Sabath.
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  #42  
Old Jul 22, '08, 4:49 am
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Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
I'm curious as to when the Church decided Sunday was the day of worship. I know the meaning behind it, being the Lord's day. However, a Protestant brought it up on a discussion board and I want to show how a Catholic Bishop or Pope decreed it so or even a layman talking about the subject. Preferably from the Patristic era. I know of the references in Acts. I'm looking for Early Church Father material.

Thanks in advance!

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew
They started worshipping on Sunday during the time of the Apostles. Read Acts and the Epistles..
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"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
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  #43  
Old Jul 22, '08, 6:50 am
Br. Rich SFO Br. Rich SFO is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpazo View Post
I'm curious as to when the Church decided Sunday was the day of worship. I know the meaning behind it, being the Lord's day. However, a Protestant brought it up on a discussion board and I want to show how a Catholic Bishop or Pope decreed it so or even a layman talking about the subject. Preferably from the Patristic era. I know of the references in Acts. I'm looking for Early Church Father material.

Thanks in advance!

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew
In the very early apostolic Church the Mass as we know it was split between two days. On Saturday what we call the Liturgy of the word was celebrated in the Jewish temple or synagogue. Then on Sunday (The Lord's Day) the Liturgy of the Eucharist was celebrated.
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  #44  
Old Aug 27, '08, 3:05 am
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peary View Post
It makes no difference. We have writings from early Christian bishops from the first and second centuries who have clarified this for us already and shows us that the early Christians had already
been worshipping on Sunday, the first day of the week, since Paul's day. Save yourself the trouble.

You need to figure out for yourself why the Sabbath was changed by the apostles.
For you it makes no difference, I take my salvation seriously. To me obedience is an extreme condition to that salvation. Although we are saved by Grace, our faith is dead without the works. And the works, in some part, involves that of obedience. We are told to love Jesus, and a show of that love is to be obedient to his commandments. One of those is to "Remember" and "Keep" the Sabbath holy, notice we don't make the Sabbath holy because it already is.

Now, as for those documents you referred to, could you direct me to them so I may read them for myself. My research, yes I am doing research, so far has not been able to produce anything pertaining to what you have mentioned.
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  #45  
Old Aug 27, '08, 2:43 pm
peary1 peary1 is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Since the Resurrection took place on a Sunday, the first day of the week.
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