World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

[redrosetea]

There are things I like about both of them

[jmcrae]

Originally Posted by Eden

No, I prefer the Latin Mass. Maybe it has to do with age? I think some of the criticism on your part stems from a hostility toward the younger generation generally. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's possible. My tastes in both Masses and music have changed a lot over time. When I was a kid, I listened to guitar music. I liked guitar music, and when I met someone who sang Christian songs while playing the guitar, I was excited - the message of the Gospel became meaningful to me, because I was attracted to the music.

Today, I prefer more traditional music, but I know that if someone had required that I only access Jesus through traditional music when I was 12 or 13 years old, I would have very likely had more interesting things to do with my time than to bother with Jesus at all.

As it happens, I was able to access Him through a kind of music that was accessible to me at that time, and I have been growing my relationship with Him ever since.

[iamrefreshed]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

Would you send your kids to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPNomC8ON08

Uh....yeah, I would.

[iamrefreshed]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

Probably the least responsible would be the "youth" who attend. The most responsible would be the WYD organizers, followed by the Pope himself. Maybe the Pope could be excused due to ignorance for the first one, but any ignorance after that would not be excusable.

I take the advice from someone who speaks against the pope with a grain of salt.

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

It is not about how he looks in his dress, but about how he acts. Rather than imitating the dignified actions of Jesus Christ, whose Person he acts in, he imitates the actions and movements of a street thug rapper.

Surely you are not so blind as to not see it, right? I can't imagine there being any more glaring example of the spirit of the world as is seen in the movements and gestures of rap music, such as is manifested by Fr. Stan. If you are unable to discern something so obvious, there is no way anything I say will help you. Pray and pray alone is the only hope.



I'm sure he dressed in old clothes, and there is nothing at all wrong with that; but I am equally sure he did not imitate the worldly behavior of those days in order to attract the worldly. He attracted them by his virtue; not by becoming worldly and un-virtuous like them.

He drew them out of their way of life by giving them something to aspire to. He taught them to despise the things of the world by despising them himself. He gave them an example to follow. He did not descend to their level of baseness in the hope of attracting them by being like them. He was like them in his poverty, not in his actions and mannerisms.



Alright, let's stop right there. I can't allow you to ruin the good name of St. Francis by implying that he was indifferent to the errors of false religions, such as Islam. St. Francis realized that Islam was of the devil and did all he could to convert them so that they too might have a chance to be saved. He did not mislead them in believing that the false religion of Islam was good.

Produce the evidence to support that statement, or else admit that you completely made it up out of thin air.

You're missing the whole point. Neither Francis, Mother Teresa or Fr. Stan promote error. That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that all three have one thing in common, they all went among those whom society, especially Christians, considered to be in sin and they did so gently and with great love.

Fr. Stan's ministry is full of love and very rooted in the spirit of St. Francis.

The other part that you don't get is that his miinistry has been approved by the Superior General of the Order, whose voice in the community is the voice of St. Francis.

I can't understand, for the life of me why you would say that our superiors are wrong.

Yes, I too am part of the Franciscan family.

I do not belong to the CFR's, but we're the same family and we follow the same founder.

So when one of our brothers or sisters is blessed by the community and the superior of the community, that's the end of the discussion. Christ and St. Francis have spoken. The only person who can overrule the voice of the Superior General is the Pope himself.

Every major superior of a exempt religious orders have to send a report to the Sacred Congregation for Religious Life every three years. They must tell not only about their prayer life, but also about their ministry, if they are involved in ministry. They must also consult on any ministry that is out of the ordinary. They do not function in a vacuum.

Finally, you are stuck on Stan Fortuno's priesthood. His order does not see the priest except when he's celebrating the sacraments. His ia Brother and what he does with his music is be a brother to those whom no one wants to have around.

Brother Stan brings them to the friary chapel for confession and the Eucharist. He has often found that he has saved a life and a soul. This is why the Order approves of his ministry. What is wrong with that?

You call his music and gesturs base. That's a matter of opinion and you're entitled to have it. However, the proof of sanctity is not pious actions and modest behaviours. The proof of sanctity is charity.

JR

[Bruno Schulz]

It might be bad what John Lennon said. But who of us is without sin, and we are not allowed to condemn a person who is in the hemisphere of God, as we are unable to judge if Lennon is with God now.

There are real devils like Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin who murdered up to Millions. Lennon said something, he might be did regret deeply. So let’s pray God forgives us our accusing so badly John.
Lennon was murdered in 1980 and the man who did it, is still in prison after almost 28 years. Chapman himself had pleaded for GUILTY and asked himself for stiff punishment. Yoko Ono asked to never let the killer Mark David Chapman free, as how she sais: "violence begets violence".

Forgive us our sins, - AS WE FORGIVE THOSE, WHO SIN AGAINST US ???
Do we forgive?

No, the music itself is not at all evil. What we interprete into (what so ever) migh be of real evil.

[Pax et Caritas]

Originally Posted by Eden

No, I prefer the Latin Mass. Maybe it has to do with age? I think some of the criticism on your part stems from a hostility toward the younger generation generally. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not at all. I have no problem with young people. I do have a problem with what is known as "MTV/youth culture", but I undersand that not all youth partake in that corrupt and base behavior. There are many pious and upright young men and women who live as God would have them to do. These are to be praised and encouraged.

But even with those that do partake in the corrupt behavior of the "youth culture", I do not dislike them. If anything I feel very sorry for them. I was not much different than they are when I was that age. If I become angry with anyone, it is the adults who encourage that "culture", not the kids who are lost in it. They are to be pitied.

[Pax et Caritas]

Originally Posted by JReducation

You're missing the whole point. Neither Francis, Mother Teresa or Fr. Stan promote error. That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that all three have one thing in common, they all went among those whom society, especially Christians, considered to be in sin and they did so gently and with great love.

St. Francis went into the society of the Muslims in order to convert them. He didn't pray with them. You claimed that Mother Theresa, who used to pray with them and said her desire was for "a Muslim to be a better Muslim, and for a Hindu to be a better Hindu", was following the example of St. Francis. That is false. St. Francis did not encourage the infidels to be better infidels. He encouraged them to abandon their false religion and convert to the true religion.

Fr. Stan's ministry is full of love and very rooted in the spirit of St. Francis.

St. Francis would turn over in his grave if he saw Fr. Stan "rocking out", and giving that example to the youth.

Finally, you are stuck on Stan Fortuno's priesthood.

You've mentioned that a few times, but I just passed over it without responding. What do you mean I am stuck on his Priesthood? He is a Priest. He is not merely a brother. He has been raised to the level of Priest and that is what he will be for all eternity.

At ordination, he was given the sacerdotal character of Jesus Christ, which made him, in a real sense, one with Christ. He is now associated to the person of Christ in a way that the laity are not. He is an altar Christus - another Christ. As such, he should behave as an altar Christus, not as an altar snoop dog, or an altar MNM.

We don't need Priests behaving/imitating street thug rappers. We need them behaving like Priest. Our youth have enough examples of street thugs. They get that 24-7 on MTV. What they lack, and what they need, are examples of holiness and uprightness of life. Wisdom, dignity, and virtuous behavior is the example they need. Their souls is crying out for bread, and all it is receiving is a stone ("rock").

The youth need examples that will draw them to a life of virtue and holiness, which is the exact contrary of what the "youth culture" promotes. What they don't need is to see Priests descending to that level of baseness. What kind of example is that?

But when the spirit of the world has invaded the Church to the extent that it has today, it does not surprise me to learn that many Catholic are unable to se the problem with a rapping Priest. For some strange reason, they are either unable to distinguish the most glaring example of the spirit of the world, or else they no longer believe that "the spirit of the world is the enemy of God".

Here's Fr. Stan and two Priests in cassocks "rocking out" at World Youth Day".

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yj1qDfjgqwQ

[Pax et Caritas]

Here's a few quotes to consider... especially the last one:

Cardinal John Henry Newman: "I think God that I live in a day when the enemy is outside the Church, and I know what he is up to. But I foresee a day when the enemy will be both outside and inside the Church... and I pray now for the poor faithful who will be caught in the crossfire."

Ann Catherine Emmerick: "Then I saw that everything pertaining to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upper-hand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence. Most priests were lured by the glittering but false knowledge of young school-teachers, and they all contributed to the work of destruction. In those days, Faith will fall very low, and it will be preserved in some places only, in a few cottages and in a few families which God has protected from disasters and wars".

St. Anthony of the Desert (4th century): "Men will surender to the spirit of the age. They will say that if they had lived in our day, Faith would be simple and easy. But in their day, they will say, things are complex; the Church must be brought up to date and made meaningful to the day's problems. When the Church and the world are one, then those days are at hand because our Divine Master placed a barrier between His things and the things of the world".

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

St. Francis went into the society of the Muslims in order to convert them. He didn't pray with them. You claimed that Mother Theresa, who used to pray with them and said her desire was for "a Muslim to be a better Muslim, and for a Hindu to be a better Hindu", was following the example of St. Francis. That is false. St. Francis did not encourage the infidels to be better infidels. He encouraged them to abandon their false religion and convert to the true religion.



St. Francis would turn over in his grave if he saw Fr. Stan "rocking out", and giving that example to the youth.



You've mentioned that a few times, but I just passed over it without responding. What do you mean I am stuck on his Priesthood? He is a Priest. He is not merely a brother. He has been raised to the level of Priest and that is what he will be for all eternity.

At ordination, he was given the sacerdotal character of Jesus Christ, which made him, in a real sense, one with Christ. He is now associated to the person of Christ in a way that the laity are not. He is an altar Christus - another Christ. As such, he should behave as an altar Christus, not as an altar snoop dog, or an altar MNM.

We don't need Priests behaving/imitating street thug rappers. We need them behaving like Priest. Our youth have enough examples of street thugs. They get that 24-7 on MTV. What they lack, and what they need, are examples of holiness and uprightness of life. Wisdom, dignity, and virtuous behavior is the example they need. Their souls is crying out for bread, and all it is receiving is a stone ("rock").

The youth need examples that will draw them to a life of virtue and holiness, which is the exact contrary of what the "youth culture" promotes. What they don't need is to see Priests descending to that level of baseness. What kind of example is that?

But when the spirit of the world has invaded the Church to the extent that it has today, it does not surprise me to learn that many Catholic are unable to se the problem with a rapping Priest. For some strange reason, they are either unable to distinguish the most glaring example of the spirit of the world, or else they no longer believe that "the spirit of the world is the enemy of God".

Here's Fr. Stan and two Priests in cassocks "rocking out" at World Youth Day".

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yj1qDfjgqwQ

I think you need to learn a little more about our community.

1. Francis would approve of anything that his successors sanctioned.

2. To say that Fr. Stan is not merely a brother is offensive to the entire Franciscan family, including St. Francis himself. Our friars are religious in solemn vows. The solemn vows have a very special place in the Church.

3. All Franciscans are called to be Brothers first, then priests. This has been an 800 year tradition in our family and now you seem to want to change that. This was a fact that was sealed by a Bull from Pope Honorius. Any priest or deacon who joined our community was to be a friar first. His priestly ministry depended totally on the will of the community and the superior.

4. Franciscans have nothing but the utmost respect and love for the priesthood and understand the theology of the priesthood. There is no doubt about an ordained friar being an alter Cristos. The only problem that you're missing here is that our holy father was The Mirror of Perfection, declared so at his canonization. As St. Bonaventure put it, he was the saints saint. So every friar in our community, whether he is a priest, social worker, teacher, janitor or cook is called to be a Mirror of Perfection. You cannot separate Fr. Stan from his Franciscan vocation, because that takes priority in his life.

5. What he looks like and what he achieves are very different. He brings people to God.

6. The concert at World Youth Day was not only performed by the Friars of the Renewal, but also the Sisters of Life. If you had heard the interview of the Sisters of Life on EWTN this week they spoke about how this was not a rock concert, but a mode of preaching and how much love and effort the two communities put into it for more than a year.

7. Following the interview of the Sisters of Life there was an interview of the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration who were allowed to leave the cloister and attend World Youth Day to pray with the young people at the concert in front of the Blessed Sacrament that was positioned just a few hundred yards away. They had hundreds of kids going back and forth from the concert to the Blessed Sacrament. If it true that you will know them by their fruits, then the Sisters and the Friars did the work of Christ. This is what they are called to do. This is why the friars have held on to the fact that they are first and foremost brothers, because brothers bring others to their common Father.

JR

[Pax et Caritas]

Originally Posted by JReducation

I think you need to learn a little more about our community.

1. Francis would approve of anything that his successors sanctioned.

So, if they sanctioned something harmful, St. Francis would approve?

2. To say that Fr. Stan is not merely a brother is offensive to the entire Franciscan family

It would only be offensive is they did not understand that a Priest has a higher level of objective dignity due to the sacerdotal character which makes him "another Christ". Anyone who understands that reality would not be offended.

On the contrary, a Priest should be offended if he is considered to be on the same level as a brother. He is not. It is an act of injustice to consider a Priest no different than a brother.

Our friars are religious in solemn vows. The solemn vows have a very special place in the Church.

Solemn vows do not give a man the sacerdotal character of Jesus Christ. Solemn vows to not enable a Priest to call down upon the altar God Himself, or to absolve a person of their sins.

St. Francis understood this. That is why, when he was brought into the presence of a Priest who was living an openly immoral life, St. Francis fell on his knees and kissed his robe. St. Francis understood that the Priest was on a much higher level of dignity than himself. St. Francis' holiness was much greater, but not his objective level of dignity.

The only problem that you're missing here is that our holy father was The Mirror of Perfection, declared so at his canonization. As St. Bonaventure put it, he was the saints saint. So every friar in our community, whether he is a priest, social worker, teacher, janitor or cook is called to be a Mirror of Perfection. You cannot separate Fr. Stan from his Franciscan vocation, because that takes priority in his life.

You are confusing holiness of life with the dignity of a Priest upon receiving the sacerdotal character. You would benefit from a deeper study of your faith so that you understand these things.

BTW, I asked you once before but you did not respond. How long have you been a Catholic?

[jmcrae]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

I was not much different than they are when I was that age.

And how were you brought out of it? Were you just suddenly immersed into Gregorian Chant, or was it a more gradual process?

If you're like most people, it was a more gradual process, building on the good things of where you were at, and gradually introducing new habits, one at a time, so as not to shock your system, or turn you away from it.