World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

[stbruno]

I keep remembering that Jesus attendend many banquets with frivolity and music. In fact, his first miracle happened at one such event..a wedding. I think World Youth Day is amazing and the numbers of vocations that arise out of just these happenings is worth it all. Holiness can be found in many wonderful ways.

[Bruno Schulz]

Originally Posted by stbruno

I keep remembering that Jesus attendend many banquets

Ay? a Bruno? Saint Bruno? Which Bruno do you refer to? "Mine" is the one of Cologne

But tell me: "many banquets" ?
Which do you refer to?
But surely when the over 5000 listened to Jesus and Jesus gave them food (fish and bread) there where several moments of fun and joy.
I'm absolutely sure, that if we had met Jesus in those days, we would have met a friendly, smiling, and even joking man.
And: Why not?!
This is the way I take all efforts to meet people; friendly, smiling, and joking, but with a very open ear for their troubles. Mostly it works

[Christophorus72]

Ecclesiastes 3:1
There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens.
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant.
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance.
A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them; a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away.
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to be silent, and a time to speak.
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

[Bruno Schulz]

Originally Posted by Christophorus72

Ecclesiastes 3:1

Let us pray, that we do the right thing at the right time, and find the right words to the right people of which we don’t know, if these people are way above us in the eye of God.

[Pax et Caritas]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

If you don't see a problem with the band and the stage diving, we are on two different planets. Can you imagnie the Blessed Mother, or St. Theresa the little Flower stage diving, or "rocking out" to the band?

Originally Posted by JReducation

I can imagine Terese of Liseux doing this if she were living today. She was young, she was excited about the missionary activity of the Church and she was an artist in her own right.

So, you can imagine St. Theresa the little flower rocking out and diving off of the state, like those in the video? If that is really what you think I feel very sorry for you, because you are completely unable to distinguish between the Spirit of God and the spirit of the world. The two are the complete opposites.

[Bruno Schulz]

I was asked; “what is fun of the clean sort?”

Well. There is dirty fun and here is clean fun.

Dirty fun is every kind of fun and laughter that is in which so ever way hurting anybody in any way. Any fun, that’s affecting anybody’s feelings, his soul, honour, property, pulling someone’s leg, etc. or is abusive to ANY Religion, is impure fun that mugs up the soul of the Person who makes that kind of “fun”.

Fun that’s really pleasant to anybody if present or absent and justifiable before God, is clean fun.

I said to my sons when they where young: Nice fun is, what you would say or do if God stood right beside you (He does anyway). I say the same to myself now.

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

So, you can imagine St. Theresa the little flower rocking out and diving off of the state, like those in the video? If that is really what you think I feel very sorry for you, because you are completely unable to distinguish between the Spirit of God and the spirit of the world. The two are the complete opposites.

The highlight is mine

You are taking my statement out of context. Reread what I posted. Therese was a great lover of missionary activity of the Church. As a young woman herself, she used very creative means to share the faith, lives of the saints, and the joy of God with others, including her sisters.

There is nothing wrong with being joyful or even clowning in a manner that is neither offensive nor dangerous to self or others. We get this very clear from Therese, the great missionary of the Church.

Had she been present today and at World Youth Day, her own excitement for the Gospel and her joy at seeing Christ's life permeate youth would probably be very contageous for her. She was not a stiff neck Christian or nun. In fact, she is reported to have been a nun who laughed, joked, danced, sang and celebrated every opportunity there was to enjoy the joy that came from being in the presence of God's goodness.

I don't see why we want to limit our young people to acting as if they were 60 when in fact, that's why it's called World Youth Day. The purpose of the event is to allow youth to find Christ in thier typical youth culture.

If they jump at a stage without any profanity or offense to God or others, it is just a sponataneous response. It is unreasonable to expect young people to give up their youthful joy and energy. The purpose of World Youth Day is to help young people chanel this toward an innocent expression of faith and community.

Many saints were very excitable when it came to life with Christ. Bl. Angela of Foligno, a very famous Secular Franciscan would throw herself on the floor out of sheer joy to find herself in the joy and presence of the Lord and the Church.

Read this again.

I can imagine Terese of Liseux doing this if she were living today. She was young, she was excited about the missionary activity of the Church and she was an artist in her own right.

She introduced theatre into the cloisters of Carmel. Terese wrote a play about Joan of Arc and had the nuns take off their habits and dawn midieval costumes to put on the play. This was something that was never done in Carmel.

She certainly had a strong inclination toward using the stage as a means of teaching the faith in a manner that was fun and respectful of the saints and the Lord.

Hope this clarification helps.

Fraternally,

JR

[JReducation]

Here is Therese in one of her many costumes as a stage actress during her years at the Carmel cloister.

Notice that she's even wearing a wig instead of her habit. I think it's a beautiful reminder that holiness is forever young and creative.

JR

[Pax et Caritas]

Originally Posted by JReducation

There is nothing wrong with being joyful or even clowning in a manner that is neither offensive nor dangerous to self or others. We get this very clear from Therese, the great missionary of the Church.

There's nothing wrong with spiriutal joy, but if you are unable to distinguish Christian spiritual joy from the rock and roll worldliness of the video, I can't help you.

Had she been present today and at World Youth Day, her own excitement for the Gospel and her joy at seeing Christ's life permeate youth would probably be very contageous for her.

Are you saying that she would have allowed her lower nature to over take her higher nature... that she would not have been able to control herself?

She was not a stiff neck Christian or nun.

Being in contol of oneself is not being stiff necked. In fact, to the extent that one looses controle of themselves, true spiritual joy is replaced by the spirit of the flesh.

In fact, she is reported to have been a nun who laughed, joked, danced, sang and celebrated every opportunity there was to enjoy the joy that came from being in the presence of God's goodness.

I'm sure she was very joyful, but I am equally sure she was not worldly. You do realize the difference between being joyfull and being worldly, don't you?

I don't see why we want to limit our young people to acting as if they were 60 when in fact, that's why it's called World Youth Day.

It is about being virtuous and in control of oneself.

The purpose of the event is to allow youth to find Christ in thier typical youth culture.

What f "typical youth culture" is corrupt? Should it be promoted by the Church?

If they jump at a stage without any profanity or offense to God or others, it is just a sponataneous response. It is unreasonable to expect young people to give up their youthful joy and energy. The purpose of World Youth Day is to help young people chanel this toward an innocent expression of faith and community.

Again, you are obviously completely unable to distinguish between the spirit of the world, the spirit of the flesh, and the spirit of God. Don't confuse Christian joy (which comes from the Holy Ghost) with the spirit of the flesh.

Hope this clarification helps.

The only thing it clarifies is what I have suspected: The spirit of the world has invaded the Church to such an extent that now even many adults are unable to distringuish between it, and the Spirit of God. The fusing of the spirit of the world with the Church is producing a corrupt form of Catholicism completely devoid of the Holy Ghost. Why? Because "the spirit of the world is the enemy of God".

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

There's nothing wrong with spiriutal joy, but if you are unable to distinguish Christian spiritual joy from the rock and roll worldliness of the video, I can't help you.

Are you saying that she would have allowed her lower nature to over take her higher nature... that she would not have been able to control herself?

Being in contol of oneself is not being stiff necked. In fact, to the extent that one looses controle of themselves, true spiritual joy is replaced by the spirit of the flesh.

I'm sure she was very joyful, but I am equally sure she was not worldly. You do realize the difference between being joyfull and being worldly, don't you?

It is about being virtuous and in control of oneself.

What f "typical youth culture" is corrupt? Should it be promoted by the Church?

Again, you are obviously completely unable to distinguish between the spirit of the world, the spirit of the flesh, and the spirit of God. Don't confuse Christian joy (which comes from the Holy Ghost) with the spirit of the flesh.

The only thing it clarifies is what I have suspected: The spirit of the world has invaded the Church to such an extent that now even many adults are unable to distringuish between it, and the Spirit of God. The fusing of the spirit of the world with the Church is producing a corrupt form of Catholicism completely devoid of the Holy Ghost. Why? Because "the spirit of the world is the enemy of God".

I can see that you are determined to examine my spiritual life and development. I’m not sure why, but if it brings you joy, by all means do so.

Fortunately, I have a very good religious community from where I draw my spiritual life and knowledge. If you are worried about me, please be calm. I am very well grounded in the spiritual life and well formed in the spirit of the Gospels.

As to my ability to tell the difference between the world and the Divine, that is something that I discuss at great length with my spiritual director and superior. I would encourage you to pray for me, that I may continue to make progress, especially in the area of humility, detachment, and prayer.

Maybe we’re coming from very different approaches, which is OK. I’m coming at this from the spirit of my Franciscan charism, where joy, youth, spontaneity and innocence are highly appreciated. To the best of my knowledge, all the reports coming out of World Youth Day via the Catholic Media and the secular media indicate that nothing inappropriate is happening or has happened at World Youth Day.

Our Franciscan Friars of the Eternal Word who have been there all week, as well as our Capuchin Friars have communicated that the spirit of the young people and their behaviour has been most appropriate and positive. It has been what is typical for their age, but not offensive or damaging in any way.

I consider our Brothers very reliable sources of information. Anyone can see and hear our Friars on EWTN 24/7 this week. If you have another reliable source of information, please share it.

Fraternally,

JR

[stbruno]

Originally Posted by Bruno Schulz

Ay? a Bruno? Saint Bruno? Which Bruno do you refer to? "Mine" is the one of Cologne

But tell me: "many banquets" ?
Which do you refer to?
But surely when the over 5000 listened to Jesus and Jesus gave them food (fish and bread) there where several moments of fun and joy.
I'm absolutely sure, that if we had met Jesus in those days, we would have met a friendly, smiling, and even joking man.
And: Why not?!
This is the way I take all efforts to meet people; friendly, smiling, and joking, but with a very open ear for their troubles. Mostly it works

Yep, it's St.Bruno of Cologne. I have great respect for our parishes patron.

[Navarricano]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

Would you send your kids to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPNomC8ON08

If I had kids, in a heartbeat. I attended the 1997 WYD in Paris and it was fine. It was a very joyous occasion and I saw nothing which led me to believe that the young people in attendance were there for anything other than the most positive of motivations.

I share the opinion that other posters have expressed: it seems Mr. Vennari went to WYD Toronto looking for things to criticize. That he found nothing at all positive about the experience makes his motives seem suspicious to me.

However, I think the manner in which the video was posted conveys the wrong message to browsers on YouTube. Since when is YouTube the proper manner to address concerns about the Church while safeguarding unity? The disabling of comments on the video seems like the person who posted the video does not want to dialogue either.

II agree with vppoole here. YouTube is not an appropriate forum on which Catholics ought to discuss and debate "family business." There's too much rubbish and too many hostile, nasty people on it for it to be of any use for these kinds of discussions. Not to mention too many bored 15 year olds with aliases trolling and being as offensive as possible.

In addition, and I'm sorry to have to say this, the commentaries that your man Vennari made about the dance styles shown on the giant on the video screen at the "dance interpretation of the Gospel" are just silly. "Earthy" and "sensual"!? A pair of faintly-competent pirouettes?!!? Aaack!

I'm no fan of silly interpretive dance, (and never, ever at Mass) but COME ON! If you want to see what "earthy and sensual" dancing really looks like, type Lopez, Aguilera, Beyoncé or Shakira into the search bar on YouTube, Mr. V!

Ditto his comment about "lots of aimless wandering." What do they do when they're not at the masses, catechetical sessions and the like? They "wander around" and meet kids from other countries and make some new friends! That's what the kids I took to WYD in '97 did, and it was a fantastic experience for them. They exchanged little pins and souvenirs that said USA with kids from Germany, Spain, Poland, France and Italy among others, and had fun.

And as for the stage diving, well, it never appealed to me but it's just youthful energy. It may not be the wisest of activities to do, but it's no sin.

Teresa of Avila played the guitar. Francis of Assisi loved to act, dance and write songs. Elizabeth Ann Seton played the piano. John Paul II loved soccer, swimming, hiking and the theatre. Our Holy Father Benedict plays the piano too.

And danced with castanets.

Yes! And she also said, "Lord, deliver me from gloomy saints."

I agree with him that more could be done to remind young people of the presence of the Blessed Sacrament when they are gathered in a church or chapel, but most of the rest his comments seem silly to me. He's criticizing things that take place at social events as if they were being done in a church. Singing, loud music, "line dancing" and stage diving are not sins, they're noisy fun for sleep-deprived kids at a thee-day international festival. It's a celebration, not a silent retreat.

And while I am no longer a "young person", and I really, really don't like being in the middle of enormous crowds as a rule, if the Pope does indeed announce that the next one is going to be in Madrid in 2010 as he is expected to, I'll probably be there with a group of kids!

[Pax et Caritas]

Originally Posted by JReducation

I can see that you are determined to examine my spiritual life and development. ...
Fortunately, I have a very good religious community from where I draw my spiritual life and knowledge. If you are worried about me, please be calm. I am very well grounded in the spiritual life and well formed in the spirit of the Gospels.

Our Franciscan Friars of the Eternal Word who have been there all week, as well as our Capuchin Friars have communicated that the spirit of the young people and their behaviour has been most appropriate and positive. It has been what is typical for their age, but not offensive or damaging in any way.

I consider our Brothers very reliable sources of information. Anyone can see and hear our Friars on EWTN 24/7 this week.

Franciscan Friars? Is this one of the Priests who has been giving you spiritual direction?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZu6FRSJ1w4

[LilyM]

Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas

Franciscan Friars? Is this one of the Priests who has been giving you spiritual direction?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZu6FRSJ1w4

He's a Franciscan Friar of the Renewal - a different kettle of fish to the Friars of the Atonement (which are the EWTN mob, and their orthodoxy is unimpeachable).

I hope you know better than to tar all subgroups of the absolutely massive Franciscan order with the same brush.

Besides which there's nothing wrong with Fr Stan anyway. He has probably done more singlehandedly to bring young people to the faith (and I mean orthodox practice of the faith, his music is not about wishy-washy feelgood-ism if you bother to listen either to his music or his interviews) than just about any other individual in the US.

Remember Jesus said for the householder to take out of his store of treasure
'things NEW and old'. Rap music is new, that doesn't mean it can't be a true treasure.

[Pax et Caritas]

Originally Posted by LilyM

I hope you know better than to tar all subgroups of the absolutely massive Franciscan order with the same brush.

Besides which there's nothing wrong with Fr Stan anyway. He has probably done more singlehandedly to bring young people to the faith (and I mean orthodox practice of the faith, his music is not about wishy-washy feelgood-ism if you bother to listen either to his music or his interviews) than just about any other individual in the US.

Remember Jesus said for the householder to take out of his store of treasure
'things NEW and old'. Rap music is new, that doesn't mean it can't be a true treasure.

What do you think about this one? Is this another example of a new "treasure"? It is a 60 something heavy metal monk.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200807...s-d7f4ae7.html