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  #1  
Old Jul 18, '08, 11:42 am
sdeco sdeco is offline
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Default Chastity in Marriage

I am a bit confused about whether certain sexual practices are allowed in marriage. I know that Catholic couples must not use contraception and that every sexual act must end with the man climaxing inside the woman. I know that foreplay, lingerie and different positions are perfectly fine, and that viewing pornography is definitely wrong. However, I would like answers to the following questions. Provided that the aforementioned conditions are met,

Is it ok to use sex toys?
Is it ok to read erotica to each other as part of foreplay?
Is it ok to “talk dirty” during sex?
Is it ok to take pictures of each other naked or wearing lingerie, provided that they are never shown to anyone else, are not used by one spouse for masturbation, and are kept somewhere where no one else would ever find them?

Are there any other conditions that must be met in order for the marital act to be licit? Thanks.
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  #2  
Old Jul 18, '08, 12:23 pm
Marc Aupiais's Avatar
Marc Aupiais Marc Aupiais is offline
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Cool Re: Chastity in Marriage

"The dignity of marriage
"'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the church." (Ephesians 5:31:32) The separation of love and life is always immoral. This is done by being closed to either one, or both, when using (or abusing) our sexual faculties:
Contraception, onanism, perversion, masturbation, casual sex-without-commitment, even sex-without-love between married people.

"Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5:28)

"If a man looks at his wife with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart" - Pope John Paul II .

Lust is not just sexual desire, it is sexual desire with no regard for the personhood of the other. It treats the other as a sex object, for the purpose of self-gratification. In a case of lust, the person does not matter. Sexual desire between married people expressing their love is a blessing. (See Genesis 1:28)."
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net...e/intro_01.asp

to the statements discussed-
The first one, well- could it fall into "masturbation"? as contraceptive (articficial e.g. condoms) are classified under- then it would be against catholic morality, or if sexuality is sought without unitive, or pro creative aspects, i.e. for pleasure itself.

for the second:
"2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials. "
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
I would think descriptions fall into it, but I can err.

as to the third,

"2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."144 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure: "
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

is this the result of good, catholic representation of God's interaction within the trinity, does God talk dirty- it is of course known that the Father and son spirate the Spirit, and sexuality is a manifestation of God's joy in creating, us, and spirating the Spirit, who is love, and God, by the Father and Son.

as to the forth

"The lust of the flesh directs these desires, however, to satisfaction of the body, often at the cost of a real and full communion of persons. In this sense, attention should be paid to the way in which semantic accentuations are distributed in the verses of Genesis 3. Although there are few of them, they reveal interior consistency. The man seems to feel ashamed of his own body with particular intensity: "I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself" (Gn 3:10). These words emphasize the metaphysical character of shame. At the same time, for the man, shame united with lust will become an impulse to "dominate" the woman. ("he shall rule over you.")"
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tb30.htm

and seeing Aquinas

"I answer that, A thing is said to be a mortal works. sin in two ways. First, by reason of its species, and in this way a kiss, caress, or touch does not, of its very nature, imply a mortal sin, for it is possible to do such things without lustful pleasure, either as being the custom of one's country, or on account of some obligation or reasonable cause. Secondly, a thing is said to be a mortal sin by reason of its cause: thus he who gives an alms, in order to lead someone into heresy, sins mortally on account of his corrupt intention. Now it has been stated above (I-II, 74, 8), that it is a mortal sin not only to consent to the act, but also to the delectation of a mortal sin. Wherefore since fornication is a mortal sin, and much more so the other kinds of lust, it follows that in such like sins not only consent to the act but also consent to the pleasure is a mortal sin. Consequently, when these kisses and caresses are done for this delectation, it follows that they are mortal sins, and only in this way are they said to be lustful. Therefore in so far as they are lustful, they are mortal sins. "
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm#article4

there is motives involved,

further, John Paul states what I shall quote again

"If a man looks at his wife with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart"
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  #3  
Old Jul 18, '08, 12:45 pm
Marc Aupiais's Avatar
Marc Aupiais Marc Aupiais is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

To my verdicts, and senses, especially considering the context I'd imagine such to be from, pictures or images seem about risk, in trusting, and power- it hints at insecurity, and a need to feel safe, or in power, it seems wrong. In any case- what if the images are discovered, is it not then in a sense provocative, mind you, the ask an apologist forum may help, or other posts, personally I think all the above to be questionable, as to the authentic purpose of the theoretical couple, but that may be wrong

see scripturelink for further questions, or ask in forums.

http://scripturelink.googlepages.com...&sa=Search#270

marc
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  #4  
Old Jul 18, '08, 12:56 pm
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Marc Aupiais Marc Aupiais is offline
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Cool Re: Chastity in Marriage

http://www.catholic.com/chastity/chastity_questions.asp

may aid
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  #5  
Old Jul 18, '08, 2:52 pm
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EmeraldWings EmeraldWings is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeco View Post
Is it ok to use sex toys?
Is it ok to read erotica to each other as part of foreplay?
Is it ok to “talk dirty” during sex?
Is it ok to take pictures of each other naked or wearing lingerie, provided that they are never shown to anyone else, are not used by one spouse for masturbation, and are kept somewhere where no one else would ever find them?
every answer is No.
i'll try to make this simple, all those acts you speak of are lustful, and what the church teaches is that we are all Obligated to practice chastity according to our state in life, and in the case of married people - Chastity regulates the use of sex for married people, which is "To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law."

now you may ask, well what are the rules?
mainly the rules for intercourse are that it may be engaged only in the natural manner, between husband and wife, with their proper marriage partner, and only in a manner that leaves open the conception of a child.
that should spell it out quite clearly,

but let me address each question individually now,


Is it ok to use sex toys?
think of it this way, lets say you went ahead and used them, with the intention of ending in the natural manner as you're meant to, what's the difference if you did it with or without ending in that manner?
can you honestly believe that the one action could cancel out the sin of another?
if you can make sense of that to yourself, then explain it to me, otherwise don't give into it.
but i think it's safe to say that one action will definitely not cancel out the sin of another action.

Is it ok to read erotica to each other as part of foreplay?
The catholic church forbids impure reading, and that is no exception for married people, it will put dirty thoughts in your head, and also lead to a perverted mind, if not already perverted.

Is it ok to “talk dirty” during sex?
this i will explain with a quote from the catechism book "this is the faith", since it explains it so well.
" "But now put you also all away: Anger, indignation, malice, blasphemy, filthy speech out of your mouth." (Col. 3:8 ).
An immodest tongue is the devil's carriage because it carries souls to Hell for him. With our lips we are meant to praise God for ever, for all eternity. How wrong it is, therefore, to defile them now by impure talk, which often involves the souls of others in sin!."

Is it ok to take pictures of each other naked or wearing lingerie, provided that they are never shown to anyone else, are not used by one spouse for masturbation, and are kept somewhere where no one else would ever find them?
well lets say you both died unexpectedly, then how could you prevent them from being found?
although that's besides the point, it's wrong for even married people to look at each other lustfully,
you really have to understand what lust is and what it does to you,

the point is, when you look at pictures of your parter naked, you are looking at their private parts, correct? well of course, but now answer yourself this, when you look at their private parts, can you honestly say you're looking at them with love?
well, it should be obvious that when you look at someones private parts, it's lustful.


what you need to do is get yourself a good Catechism book, and make sure it's approved by the church,
but the main thing you need to know is, if you don't know if somethings a sin or not, don't do it.
because by doing something that may be a mortal sin, you show that you are willing to greatly offend God by doing it.

chastity is a very important thing to practice, because sins of the flesh are most offensive to God, and send more souls to hell then any other sin.
it's one thing if you do something unknowingly or unintentionally, but never take lust lightly, it's something you should always be serious about and be on guard with.
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  #6  
Old Jul 18, '08, 4:23 pm
Traddy Traddy is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

I disagree with EmeraldWings.

Quote:
Is it ok to use sex toys?
I'm pretty sure they're ok as long as they don't reduce either partner to an object of pleasure or replace natural intercourse. No masturbation with them... but they can be used to help achieve orgasm as long as the act is kept unitive and procreative.

Quote:
Is it ok to read erotica to each other as part of foreplay?
I doubt it. That would take the focus off each other. Proper lovemaking includes exclusive concentration on your husband/wife.
Quote:
Is it ok to “talk dirty” during sex?
As long as it doesn't reduce either partner to an object of pleasure or induce lust, sure it's fine. The husband and wife should be smart enough to know what is right to say and what is wrong.

Quote:
Is it ok to take pictures of each other naked or wearing lingerie, provided that they are never shown to anyone else, are not used by one spouse for masturbation, and are kept somewhere where no one else would ever find them?
No masturbation? No lust? Then it's perfectly fine!
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  #7  
Old Jul 18, '08, 5:58 pm
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EmeraldWings EmeraldWings is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traddy View Post
I disagree with EmeraldWings.



I'm pretty sure they're ok as long as they don't reduce either partner to an object of pleasure or replace natural intercourse. No masturbation with them... but they can be used to help achieve orgasm as long as the act is kept unitive and procreative.



I doubt it. That would take the focus off each other. Proper lovemaking includes exclusive concentration on your husband/wife.


As long as it doesn't reduce either partner to an object of pleasure or induce lust, sure it's fine. The husband and wife should be smart enough to know what is right to say and what is wrong.



No masturbation? No lust? Then it's perfectly fine!
is that what the church teaches?
well first of all, we should avoid occasions of sin, and i'm sure if married couples were smart enough to know what's ok and not ok to say or do, they wouldn't be coming here asking these questions,

sex toys are wrong because it is for masturbation, and the church does say that masturbation is a mortal sin alone or with another, and they do Not say that it's ok for married people.

and nude pictures are still pornographic, it doesn't matter who it's of, when you look at another person lustfully, you defile them, because they are temples of the Holy Spirit,

this is the definition of pornography -
"Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal."

does that spell it out clearly enough?

and i think what was said about dirty speech before was good enough, i don't need to add to it.
so if you think you can find anything wrong with it, please do.
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  #8  
Old Jul 19, '08, 1:28 am
Marc Aupiais's Avatar
Marc Aupiais Marc Aupiais is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

My response was more than adequate, as was Emerald.

The answer is in fact in the response I originally gave- do you do these things that you defend them, or are there any authentic quotes you may give- as it is not fine to declare something safe without authentic source, to declare something grey, or dangerous, so far as morality, perhaps, or declare no knowledge, but this seems quite simple from the source of it, the theoretical couple is sinning according to the Catholic Traditions, and the link I gave furthers it.
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  #9  
Old Jul 19, '08, 2:00 am
Marc Aupiais's Avatar
Marc Aupiais Marc Aupiais is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

to finish of any action such as those, we must look as careful travellers at another similar tempting of divine providence, whereby the temple is left to jump into moral death:

"
2291
The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law."
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/...2chpt2art5.htm
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  #10  
Old Jul 21, '08, 12:53 pm
royal archer royal archer is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

Unfortunately many of the scriptures treat things as black and white and do not address the areas that are in between. While these areas in between are also black and white they do take a bit more evaluation.

For instance (I will try to be polite here) a man will normally finish well before his wife. This disparity of results will have a negative impact on the unity of the marrital act. This would make the act a disapointment for the wife and could result in her non desire to participate in the act. Yes, it is possible for a man to hold off but, this in itself can degrade the unitive aspects. As such what other alternatives can be used to get the wife and husband to the point where they can finish in a unitive manner?

There are also "toys" that are not for use by one person they are used by couples and increase stimulation during a non sinful marital act. Is this artificial attempt to increase stimulation during a congugal act permitted?

There are also "toys" that deal with the expression of trust in a relationship. It would seem that these games would increase the unitive aspects of the marital acts.
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Old Jul 22, '08, 6:14 am
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Marc Aupiais Marc Aupiais is offline
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Question Re: Chastity in Marriage

Please specify, how does this contradict the other answers, what do you mean by exceptions, is there any official document you can site, not for my own sake, nor the other posters, but because this is a forum for truth is also for all matters of concern, I'd reject these other options, but then again, I cannot say I know what you are saying, and this area is an espcially important area of faith, in the truth it protrays.
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Old Aug 4, '08, 6:56 pm
beeliner beeliner is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Aupiais View Post
"John Paul states what I shall quote again

"If a man looks at his wife with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart"
Marco, you have made that claim in other threads also, and you need to provide a source - a reliable source.

It's very difficult to believe that he made such a statement. If he did, which I doubt, he probably misspoke or was misquoted and actually said '..a woman NOT his wife...'. Committing adultery with one's spouse is a contradiction in terms.

There was a sect called the Shakers, renouned for their craftsmanship. They married but did not have sex.

The sect died out. I can't imagine why!
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Old Aug 4, '08, 8:08 pm
teachccd teachccd is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldWings View Post

sex toys are wrong because it is for masturbation, and the church does say that masturbation is a mortal sin alone or with another, and they do Not say that it's ok for married people.
Mastubation is defined as stimulating one's genitals for the purpose of sexual gratification. So are you saying that in the context of the marital embrace one cannot stimulate each other genitally?

If I were to follow the guidelines that you set forth and claim as official Church teachings then the marital act would consist of disrobing, immediate intercourse and saying good night.

I'm fully aware that some externals introduced into the marital act are disordered. Pornography would definitely be one of them because it uses others as objects for the gratification of either spouse. But you say that looking at each other's genitals is lust and should therefore be avoided?

When a couple fully respects each other with the fulness of love and exhibits no selfishness or objectivity then there are certain actions within foreplay that are permissible. Your definition of making love really lacks the conjugal aspect when you confine the act to pure mechanics..........................God Bless..................teachccd
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  #14  
Old Aug 4, '08, 8:19 pm
Starwynd Starwynd is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

And why people tell me that marriage and sex is for procreation only is wrong when we have posts like these that confirm that.
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Old Aug 5, '08, 4:21 am
choose to love choose to love is offline
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Default Re: Chastity in Marriage

Beeliner, I think JP II did say something very similar to what Marc is stating he did. I teach pre-cana in my diocese, and our materials, which are prepared by Christopher West, have almost the same quote: " Adultery in the heart is committed not only because man 'looks' in this way at a woman who is not his wife . . . even if he looked in this way at his wife, he could likewise commit adultery 'in his heart' ". The cite given in the materials is to [i]The Theology of the Body, John Paul II's Addresses on Human Love in the Divine Plan[i], published by Pauline in 1997, p. 156. The point being, I think, that marriage does not justify lust, and it is beneath both parties' dignity as persons to lust or to be reduced to an object of lust.
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