European Catholicism - Page 14

DAPDN · #**196** Aug 31, '08, 6:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaninchen

I don't know whether he's actually an American but a lot of his analysis on this thread reads as if it's come straight out of the 'American Conservative Cookbook' (where even the words mean one thing to an American Conservative and quite another to anybody else).

I'm guessing that perhaps you guys have a little bit of a blur vision... In case you didn't notice, I, too, am from Portugal; Lisbon, to be more precise. It's there, on the upper right corner of all of my posts! Oh, and that makes me, obviously, an European. So, still surprised?

Jimzz12 · #**197** Aug 31, '08, 7:03 am

Europeans opted to seperate themselves from Christ...

1. The 1789 Massacres in France and worshipping of the Sun-God in the National French religion of the Cult of the Most High under the early Republic.

2. The participation and ommission in various genocides from the Armenians, to the Balkans, to the Jews, the Irish.

3. Ignoring the plight of Europes primitive peoples such as the Lapps and Highlanders, and forcing the homoginization of unique communities of peoples.

4. Extreme nationalism fragmenting Europe at the cost of Culturalism and unity.

5. Ignoring the plight of workers in the early industrial revolution.

6. Not protecting themselves by denying entrance by outsiders into Europe without first prooving themselves as friendly to the mission of the Church.

7. Lasty, Christ told us this would happen. Every kingdom erodes. Only the Most Holy Trinity is eternal.

Jimzz12 · #**198** Aug 31, '08, 7:07 am

Alas....

Poverty is a gift.

Europeans tend to be VERY VERY materialistic I would say they are generally obsessed with things, much much more so than the average American.

I can say this as I have traveled Europe and America. I met a great deal of people. Most Americans live in poverty or with basic needs on small plots of land in communities with less than 1,000 people.

DAPDN · #**199** Aug 31, '08, 7:55 am

Jimzz12,

You've pointed out some interesting and right notes about the European people. In fact, europeans tend to be very materialistic, but so do americans who live in cities like LA, NYC, Miami, et caetera. Although I'd say that out of these big urban centers, which tend to imitate the european life style, things are completely different, and you don't need to go that far from the urban centers to see how fast life styles change. You just need to go to some suburban neighborhoods to see the change hapenning.

I can guarantee that that is true, because I have family in the US and in Canada, and - just to give you an example - american/canadian families tend to make their social lifes arround their homes; they invite friends for barbecue, they make parties at home, almost all of the typical american family social life is spent at home, very close to the family nucleus. They rarely tend to have a dinner at a restaurant, or making of going to a caffé or a pub a regular habit. The Europeans tend to do the oposite; we almost don't spend any time of our social life at home - the majority of the time we, europeans, spend on our social lifes is mostly spent at pubs, bars, going to restaurants (sometimes, very fancy ones), and the fact is that you don't need to be rich to do so: everyone does so.

Also, you'd be amazed at how profitable it is for a credit institution to lend money on a microcredit basis. It's much more profitable than lending you money to buy a car or a house. As inflation grows, people are in no way concerned about making some sacrifices. Instead, they know these financial institutions exist, and that they will provide you with some ilusorious cheap and fast credit for quick consumption. And they take this false opportunity, which is, in fact, a big, dangerous mice trap. But then again this proves how materialistic are the european people.

I think protestantism had a big influence in the establishment of such a life style since the Reformation. Protestantism paved the way for Capitalism. Lending money while charging your client with interest rates was, until the 18th century, forbidden and considered a sin, in Catholic countries like Portugal or Spain. Of course this was bad to the Catholic countries, as they got behind England and the United Dutch Provinces in terms of economic and industrial development, in the 16th and 17th centuries. So we can thank Protestantism for the benefits of Capitalism (which then, much later, the Catholic Church recognised and gave permission to) but we also due to Protestantism the selfishness and materialism that came with it.

Things were different in Catholic european countries, until the dawn and expansion of the industrial revolution on the end of the 18th century and all of the 19th century. We can't say the same about the Catholic Church, who has always had a big influence on the majority of the Catholic Monarchs of European Nations in the past, and many times, tended to moderate their foul excentricities.

Cuddy Duck · #**200** Aug 31, '08, 9:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAPDN

I'm guessing that perhaps you guys have a little bit of a blur vision... In case you didn't notice, I, too, am from Portugal; Lisbon, to be more precise. It's there, on the upper right corner of all of my posts! Oh, and that makes me, obviously, an European. So, still surprised?

Well there's egg on my face a second time

Well, take as a compliment on your English.

Are you bi-lingual?

**rlg94086** · #**201** Aug 31, '08, 10:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAPDN

I'm guessing that perhaps you guys have a little bit of a blur vision... In case you didn't notice, I, too, am from Portugal; Lisbon, to be more precise. It's there, on the upper right corner of all of my posts! Oh, and that makes me, obviously, an European. So, still surprised?

Well, obviously, Portugal doesn't count as European, because you don't agree with the other Europeans in the thread. You are therefore American Conservatives, whether you like it or not.

Kaninchen · #**202** Aug 31, '08, 10:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAPDN

I'm guessing that perhaps you guys have a little bit of a blur vision... In case you didn't notice, I, too, am from Portugal; Lisbon, to be more precise. It's there, on the upper right corner of all of my posts! Oh, and that makes me, obviously, an European. So, still surprised?

Ah but I didn't say that you weren't European (much too experienced on message boards for something like that), I said that what you said was out of the 'American Conservative Cookbook'.

Cinette · #**203** Aug 31, '08, 10:05 am

G K Chesterton said that Historians do what even God can't do - they change the past - they revise history according to the prevailing politics of the day because they succomb to current hype and fashion.

This past week I have heard some versions of history on this forum which are very doubtful. DAPDN has attempted to summarise a little European history which I appreciate but do not find it entirely accurate although I myself am not totally up to date on European history. I believe that it was Luther that dealt the first blow to European Catholicism (the topic of our thread). Yes, the French Revolution dealt a devasting blow to the Church with its persecutions of the clergy and confiscation of Church property etc.

Luther's influence was felt also in the scandanivian countries where Lutherism became the official religion and the Catholic faith was banned. Protestantism spread in Germany and there also the Church suffered.

But it was ultimately the Church itself which alienated many people with its support of Fascism. Of that I have no doubt whatsoever.

With capitalism came affluence for the elite and middle classes and there was gross exploitation of the working class and peasants. As technology improved and became more sophisticated materialism grew and more people joined the ranks of the affluent. Secularism is rife and the Churches virtually emptied.

In an earlier thread I did say that I believed that Dictatorship of the Left was far worse than Dictatorship of the right. There was a time when I would be extremely insulted if someone called me reactionary but today I find that this is just a stupid label. There are invividuals who are conservative whom I like and respect far more than some people who consider themselves "progressives".

While I do not agree entirely with DAPDN and WH1988 they are sincere and I appreciate their input which has been interesting.

Now, what can be done about European Catholicism? Will the Pope and the new evangelization have an influence? Will the people of Europe revert to their old Faith? We can but pray.

Kaninchen · #**204** Aug 31, '08, 10:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimzz12

Alas....

Poverty is a gift.

An unwanted gift.

WH1988 · #**205** Aug 31, '08, 10:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaninchen

An unwanted gift.

Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek; for they shall possess the land.
Blessed are they that mourn; for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice; for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful; for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart; for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Amen.

Cinette · #**206** Aug 31, '08, 10:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WH1988

Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek; for they shall possess the land.
Blessed are they that mourn; for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice; for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful; for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart; for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Amen.

Just as suffering is a gift and it is not everybody that understands this - thank you WH1988

Kaninchen · #**207** Aug 31, '08, 10:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinette

Just as suffering is a gift and it is not everybody that understands this - thank you WH1988

Yes, I don't understand suffering as being a gift but I'm Jewish.

Cinette · #**208** Aug 31, '08, 10:22 am

FOR WH1988

When one refers to being "Poor in Spirit" I have always understood it to mean that we accept that without God we can do nothing - that we are dependant on for Him for all we have.

WH1988 · #**209** Aug 31, '08, 1:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinette

FOR WH1988

When one refers to being "Poor in Spirit" I have always understood it to mean that we accept that without God we can do nothing - that we are dependant on for Him for all we have.

It's also all about don't giving too much importance to material things and knowing that you have all you need: God. E verything else is a bonus, and poverty is a gift, because it allows you to easily understand that, as you said, we depend only of God, and because we are crucified, mortified. "When you find the Cross, you find Christ", as St. Josémaria said.

Ed Rand · #**210** Aug 31, '08, 2:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaninchen

Yes, I don't understand suffering as being a gift but I'm Jewish.

Wasn't the Babylonian exile a "gift" in a way, since through that fall and chastisement the prophets were redeemed and God's message and will for His people was once more brought "center-stage"? I don't see why a Jew should have a different view of suffering than a Christian. Salvation history is all about learning lessons through suffering. Why were they slaves to Egypt? Why were they 40 years in the dessert? Why the exile? Why the Greeks? the Romans? God's people suffer and through their suffering God teaches the world about Himself. This is the greatest gift.