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  #16  
Old Aug 2, '08, 8:17 am
odubhghail odubhghail is offline
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

I am in no wise blaming anything on Vatican II. What I refer to as 'the asteroid' is the libertarian zeitgeist that seemed to prevail in the aftermath, justifying any and all novelty in the name of the 'renewal of Vatican II.' Anyone who has read the documents knows that the large scale abuses had nothing to do with the Council. No, the touchy feely catechesis with all fluff and no substance is largely to blame.
I must disagree with you on the 'Carthusian model.' Carthusian vocations are always rare, always have been. Nonetheless, in the film, Into Great Silence, two young Frenchmen do join the monastery. In an article published in Africa magazine (the magazine of the St. Patrick's, or Kiltegan Fathers), profiling St. Hugh's Charterhouse at Parkminster, there were at least five novices pictured.
There are many contemplative orders with websites, and the average age in these groups seems to be extremely young, perhaps thirty. The Carmelite monks of Wyoming, a new foundation, is already a monastery in crisis, as they are bursting at the seams with new postulants and novices.
I think the key ingredient is prayerfulness, then a dynamic and joyful spirit-these things attract vocations. But, one can be prayerful, and keep this hidden under a basket.
  #17  
Old Aug 2, '08, 2:30 pm
1234 1234 is offline
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Carthusian vocations have always been rare, but they have founded and maintained charterhouses. Now they are closing them. Their average age is high--as seen in the film.

The contemplative houses seem to vary widely. The 'updated' cloistered seem to be having trouble, with a few exceptions, but I don't think that it is habits and 'orthodoxy' alone. It is really hard to generalize. The Carmelite monks in WY are the exception in men's orders--no other group like them. The Trappists are not doing well in general, some better than others. Some of the most conservative Discalced Carmelite women are very small--Springfield MO may merge; there is a considerable number of them with less than 10 members, some less than 5. Many of these had no web presence until recently and still don't. Others are thriving in beautiful new monasteries, which may help. I think that it has a lot to do with the foundresses and prioresses. Regina Laudis has always flourished. The recently retired prioress of the Wrentham Trappistines was apparently a wonder; she founded several daughter houses during her tenure. The nuns at Walburga have steadily enlarged.
  #18  
Old Oct 26, '09, 12:41 pm
Cowfold Cowfold is offline
 
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1234 View Post
Carthusian vocations have always been rare, but they have founded and maintained charterhouses. Now they are closing them. Their average age is high--as seen in the film.

The contemplative houses seem to vary widely. The 'updated' cloistered seem to be having trouble, with a few exceptions, but I don't think that it is habits and 'orthodoxy' alone. It is really hard to generalize. The Carmelite monks in WY are the exception in men's orders--no other group like them. The Trappists are not doing well in general, some better than others. Some of the most conservative Discalced Carmelite women are very small--Springfield MO may merge; there is a considerable number of them with less than 10 members, some less than 5. Many of these had no web presence until recently and still don't. Others are thriving in beautiful new monasteries, which may help. I think that it has a lot to do with the foundresses and prioresses. Regina Laudis has always flourished. The recently retired prioress of the Wrentham Trappistines was apparently a wonder; she founded several daughter houses during her tenure. The nuns at Walburga have steadily enlarged.
I would guess that there are less than 100 Carthusian Choir Nuns in the world today. Their life is particularly austere and difficult.
  #19  
Old Oct 28, '09, 4:00 pm
anode anode is offline
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowfold View Post
I would guess that there are less than 100 Carthusian Choir Nuns in the world today. Their life is particularly austere and difficult.
There are none in the US, but about 75 worldwide. As the Carthusian monks wane, the number of the Carthusian nuns might in time actually exceed that of the monks.

Most of these monastic houses--such as the Trappists and Carthusians-- are holding their own or increasing in Africa and possibly also in Asia.
  #20  
Old Oct 28, '09, 7:40 pm
Thepeug Thepeug is offline
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

The Monastery of St. Benedict in Norcia, Italy, is also growing at a rapid pace. The community was founded by a monk from St. Meinrad's Archabbey in Indiana, and most of the monks are American, with an average age of 25. I spent a month there this past summer and will never forget it.

website: osbnorcia.org
__________________
"We can be neither truly human without having the inclination to love God more than ourselves nor truly Christian without putting this inclination into practice."

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  #21  
Old Oct 29, '09, 11:08 am
Cowfold Cowfold is offline
 
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thepeug View Post
The Monastery of St. Benedict in Norcia, Italy, is also growing at a rapid pace. The community was founded by a monk from St. Meinrad's Archabbey in Indiana, and most of the monks are American, with an average age of 25. I spent a month there this past summer and will never forget it.

website: osbnorcia.org
Always good to hear numbers increasing but, one must not be complacent as the numbers at Parkminster rose exponentially following the 'Into Great Silence' movie and the book 'An Infinity of Little Hours by Nancy Kline Maguire. The numbers have dropped off somewhat.
Numbers are not so important. Its those who stay and are not seeking an ideal is what is important.

Peace
  #22  
Old Oct 30, '09, 6:19 am
Cowfold Cowfold is offline
 
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Interesting to note that a young Irish nun spent many years trying to found an Order based on Carthusian principles on the West Coast of Ireland but was defeated only to find that there were no priests who could celebrate the Latin Mass. There are many Charterhouses who could use her talents.
  #23  
Old Oct 31, '09, 6:13 am
O Adonai O Adonai is offline
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

The Carthusians are not dying out by any means. But the vocation has and always will be rare. But so too the Carmelite vocation. I am familiar with both.

The Carthusian nuns do not make solemn vows and until only recently have begun to live the life of the monks. Before that they lived closer to the life of the Carthusian Brothers and in a more cenobial way. One thing the Carthusian nuns do have which the Carmelites do not have is the ceremony of the consecration of Virgins.

Both Orders require a great deal of sacrifice and mortifications. The joy is there but it is a quiet spiritual joy on the whole. Most Carmels do have more recreation except for the eremitical expressions for the nuns as in Chester NJ and in Minnesota where recreation is only once a week. But the true austerity of the life is not in many penances nor in enclosure but in the spiritutal purgations of the eremiticsl life that happen in the hermitage known only to God alone.. Too may young vocations look for the corporal penances only to find in time that they are only a means albeit a good one to further deepening of ones spiritual life. Faithful perseverence is the true penance in an enclosed community where day to day sameness wears away at ones own way of looking at things. Living with the quirks of others can be a great penance,

It is a place of solitude where the community you live in will be with you for most of your life. It is the silent purgations of the soul in solitude that purifies the heart and embracing them in love is the key to holiness and true spiritual joy. The joy of being conformed to the image and likeness of the beloved in spousal love.

But this process can happen in any community that one is genuinely called too. So giving all and radicalness of the gospel can be found in any form of religious life faithfully lived. No one order has the corner on the market so to say.

Carmel was a true purification for me in ways i never expected and i suspect the same to be in the Carthusians . One of hardest things i found was to be totally anonymous to the world forgotten by all. But in time it becomes a deep desire to be known only to god alone. Another mortification is complete obedience in love.

Keep on discerning and God will inevitably show you the way. Infused contemplation is a free gift of God. All we can do is remotely prepare ourselves for this gift. Both Carmel and he Carthusian nuns require a soul willing to abandon itself completely to God in totality; and so the need for the attitude of silence, solitude and a prayer which is unceasing.

The Carthusians have their own statutes which you can find on line and are the older of the two orders. The carmelites are originally hermits too but with the exceptions above have a more cenobitical bent in theTteresian reform which has produced many great saints but there is also the ancient observance which tends to be a little more obscure. In any event you wil find that totality you seek.

Both are beautiful orders.

I hope this helps a little.

Blessings in your discernment.

O Adonai
  #24  
Old Nov 1, '09, 1:49 am
Cowfold Cowfold is offline
 
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Quote:
Originally Posted by O Adonai View Post
The Carthusians are not dying out by any means. But the vocation has and always will be rare. But so too the Carmelite vocation. I am familiar with both.

The Carthusian nuns do not make solemn vows and until only recently have begun to live the life of the monks. Before that they lived closer to the life of the Carthusian Brothers and in a more cenobial way. One thing the Carthusian nuns do have which the Carmelites do not have is the ceremony of the consecration of Virgins.

Both Orders require a great deal of sacrifice and mortifications. The joy is there but it is a quiet spiritual joy on the whole. Most Carmels do have more recreation except for the eremitical expressions for the nuns as in Chester NJ and in Minnesota where recreation is only once a week. But the true austerity of the life is not in many penances nor in enclosure but in the spiritutal purgations of the eremiticsl life that happen in the hermitage known only to God alone.. Too may young vocations look for the corporal penances only to find in time that they are only a means albeit a good one to further deepening of ones spiritual life. Faithful perseverence is the true penance in an enclosed community where day to day sameness wears away at ones own way of looking at things. Living with the quirks of others can be a great penance,

It is a place of solitude where the community you live in will be with you for most of your life. It is the silent purgations of the soul in solitude that purifies the heart and embracing them in love is the key to holiness and true spiritual joy. The joy of being conformed to the image and likeness of the beloved in spousal love.

But this process can happen in any community that one is genuinely called too. So giving all and radicalness of the gospel can be found in any form of religious life faithfully lived. No one order has the corner on the market so to say.

Carmel was a true purification for me in ways i never expected and i suspect the same to be in the Carthusians . One of hardest things i found was to be totally anonymous to the world forgotten by all. But in time it becomes a deep desire to be known only to god alone. Another mortification is complete obedience in love.

Keep on discerning and God will inevitably show you the way. Infused contemplation is a free gift of God. All we can do is remotely prepare ourselves for this gift. Both Carmel and he Carthusian nuns require a soul willing to abandon itself completely to God in totality; and so the need for the attitude of silence, solitude and a prayer which is unceasing.

The Carthusians have their own statutes which you can find on line and are the older of the two orders. The carmelites are originally hermits too but with the exceptions above have a more cenobitical bent in theTteresian reform which has produced many great saints but there is also the ancient observance which tends to be a little more obscure. In any event you wil find that totality you seek.

Both are beautiful orders.

I hope this helps a little.

Blessings in your discernment.

O Adonai
There are certain privaleges extentended to Carthusian Choir Nuns which make them unique in the the church.
I do not think you can seriously compare the rigours of the Carthusians and Carmelites.
  #25  
Old Nov 2, '09, 2:30 am
O Adonai O Adonai is offline
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

That is a personal opinion. Have you ever lived in a real 1990 Carmel? Not a piece of cake by any means. The fasting in the 1990's is stricter than in the carthusians. But is austerity the point or Love? Austerity exists only to increase love and purity of heart.

Yes as I stated the Carthusian nuns have the privilege of consecration of Virgins and act as deaconesses as they may read the Gospel at mass They receive the stole, ring and veil at the consecration and final profession but it is usually worn only three times in a nuns life, on the day of her consecration, on her golden jubilee and at death. Carmelites do not have this privilege.

Only in the 1970's were the Carthusian nuns allowed to begin to live the father's lifestyle. Prior to that women were considered too weak to endure such solitude and so lived a much more cenobial life nearer to the Carmelites but with a different rule of course.

On the other hand some Carmelite hermit nun communities have only one hour of recreation a week, all the office is said alone in the hermitage and other than that they come together only for mass. They do not have the 4 hour spatiamentum that the Carthusians do on Sundays. I know because i lived with them.

All in all comparisons like these do no good in the long run. What is important is the vocation one is called too for it is only there one will find true fulfillment and holiness.

O Adonai

Last edited by O Adonai; Nov 2, '09 at 2:33 am. Reason: used wrong name
  #26  
Old Nov 2, '09, 2:07 pm
Cowfold Cowfold is offline
 
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Thanks for enlightening the membership
  #27  
Old Nov 13, '09, 8:31 am
Cowfold Cowfold is offline
 
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowfold View Post
Thanks for enlightening the membership
I tried to post this yesterday but it was lost on the 'Ask an Apologist forum.

I see no conflict in the use of Yoga and other techniques if it helps. If your faith is stong and the the technique helps , why not. Believe me, you would be surprised at the techniques used in some Monastic orders to help in contemplation
  #28  
Old Jan 15, '10, 5:24 pm
billy555 billy555 is offline
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Smile Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Hi Sian Therese

I was wondering if you were interested in O Carm or OCD? There is an OCD Monastery in South Dakota that is very cloistered. Their contact info is Carmelite Monastery P.O. Box 67, Alexandria SD 57311. Just a thought if you wanted to check it out. Also I read the book, An Infinity of Little Hours recently and in reply to 1234's post. Dom Ignatius who had discovered he had homosexual attractions was not run out of the order. The book states that his confessor Dom Colomba advised him to continue and to make solemn profession but only if he did not have any doubts about whether the life of a Carthusian was for him. The author states that "With that in mind, and still in doubt, Dom Ignatius decided to leave." Just to clarify. Good luck with your search.
  #29  
Old Jan 16, '10, 2:32 am
Cowfold Cowfold is offline
 
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

Quote:
Originally Posted by billy555 View Post
Hi Sian Therese

I was wondering if you were interested in O Carm or OCD? There is an OCD Monastery in South Dakota that is very cloistered. Their contact info is Carmelite Monastery P.O. Box 67, Alexandria SD 57311. Just a thought if you wanted to check it out. Also I read the book, An Infinity of Little Hours recently and in reply to 1234's post. Dom Ignatius who had discovered he had homosexual attractions was not run out of the order. The book states that his confessor Dom Colomba advised him to continue and to make solemn profession but only if he did not have any doubts about whether the life of a Carthusian was for him. The author states that "With that in mind, and still in doubt, Dom Ignatius decided to leave." Just to clarify. Good luck with your search.
Re: Infinity of Little Hours:
Dom Ignatious was certainly not 'run out of the order' as this would never happen in any case. The rigorous training of Carthusian novices leaves these 'reasonings ' up to the individual, In passing Dom Columba (not his real name of course, but nonetheless an Irishman), died last Easter at the age of 93.
As for the book itself there were many inaccuracies, probably derived from nearly 50 years of nostalgia, which did not gain the book much approval from the Order.

From my point of view Vatican II did not change the Order in any substantive way. Parkminster is as unchanged under the present French Prior as it has ever been and true to the orders motto in this respect.
  #30  
Old Aug 19, '12, 6:32 am
curumba13 curumba13 is offline
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Default Re: Carthusian (nuns)

i know that this thread hasnt been replied to in a while but still...
I think its really good when cloistered religious orders dont spend lots of time on the internet. The whole point of their life is to leave the world and enter the seclusion of a monastery. i think that posting everything they do on the internet would ruin that to some extent.

i am also considering a vocation to the carthusian nuns, and i have started to learn italian with a view to applying to a charterhouse in Italy.
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