Statues and images

mikew262 · #1 Jul 30, '08, 5:01 am

I'm not sure this is the right area to post this, but I'll give it a go.

I was hanging out on a Baptist forum yesterday and specifically on a thread that dealt with the Catholic Church. One poster (former Catholic) brought up his objection to the CC's use of statues and images which he claimed was in violation of the 1st commandment.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

I read the CCC on this subject, and IMO, it kind of tap dances around it and I really wasn't satisfied with the explanation of why the Church has statues and images.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the statues and images within the CC and I personally see nothing wrong with them. However, the commandment is pretty clear on this from what I can see, see the bolded parts. It would seem any likeness or image, or statue of anything in heaven (Jesus, Mary, saints) clearly violates the commandment.

Comments?

als10062008 · #2 Jul 30, '08, 5:48 am

Venerating an image or a statue of the Blessed Mother or a saint or a crucifix isn't a sin. These images and statues can be used to meditate on the love of God and the sacrifice of Jesus' death.

What is sinful is making the object your God (think of the golden calf in the Old Testament). In this case, loving the statue or image above the relationship you have with God would be sinful. But there is no problem with meditating before an image or statue.

**thistle** · #3 Jul 30, '08, 7:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikew262

I'm not sure this is the right area to post this, but I'll give it a go.

I was hanging out on a Baptist forum yesterday and specifically on a thread that dealt with the Catholic Church. One poster (former Catholic) brought up his objection to the CC's use of statues and images which he claimed was in violation of the 1st commandment.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

I read the CCC on this subject, and IMO, it kind of tap dances around it and I really wasn't satisfied with the explanation of why the Church has statues and images.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the statues and images within the CC and I personally see nothing wrong with them. However, the commandment is pretty clear on this from what I can see, see the bolded parts. It would seem any likeness or image, or statue of anything in heaven (Jesus, Mary, saints) clearly violates the commandment.

Comments?

http://www.catholic.com/library/do_c...ip_statues.asp

FAB · #4 Jul 30, '08, 7:37 am

This is one of the oldest aurguments used to bash Catholics.

First, God came to earth and died for use, in such he showed himself to us, he has allowed us not only to call him by name but to remember him through our images and art.

The best explaination for the for our statues and images that I use, is to ask the person if they have a picture of a loved one in their wallet or purse. Ask them when they look at it what do they think about, why do they touch it or even kiss it. Are they worshiping the picture? The answer is usually because it helps them to remember the person and to think about them. Then tell them it is the same with our statues and images. We are not praying to the staute,to it, we are not offering offering addoration, it only helps us to think about and imagine, like that picture, of the saint, or Mary or Jesus and our prayer is directly to them.

The origins of the the use of statues and images were a tool to teach and inspire. The stain glass most offten depicted biblical scenes, the statues showed an aspect of a saint's life.

Peace,
FAB

btdn · #5 Jul 30, '08, 8:24 am

This probably is not the approach you would want to take with them, but it made me smile.

Quote:

All boyish whimwhams and mad bacchanalia, the false writings that have been brought forth against the venerable icons, must be turned in to the Bishopric of Constantinople to be put away together with the rest of heretical books. If, on the other hand, anyone should be found hiding these, if he be a Bishop, a Presbyter, or a Deacon, let him be deposed from office; but if he be a layman or a monk, let him be excommunicated.

Are not whimwham and bacchanalia wonderful words?

Is that the writing of a crazed, ultra-traditionalist Catholic? No. Well, maybe. Who knows. The writer got lots of bishops to agree with him. It is the ninth canon of the Seventh Ecumenical Council (a.k.a. the Second Council of Nicea).

bpbasilphx · #6 Jul 30, '08, 8:56 am

**
I was hanging out on a Baptist forum yesterday and specifically on a thread that dealt with the Catholic Church.**

When I was a Baptist, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

AverageJohn · #7 Jul 30, '08, 8:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAB

This is one of the oldest aurguments used to bash Catholics.

First, God came to earth and died for use, in such he showed himself to us, he has allowed us not only to call him by name but to remember him through our images and art.

The best explaination for the for our statues and images that I use, is to ask the person if they have a picture of a loved one in their wallet or purse. Ask them when they look at it what do they think about, why do they touch it or even kiss it. Are they worshiping the picture? The answer is usually because it helps them to remember the person and to think about them. Then tell them it is the same with our statues and images. We are not praying to the staute,to it, we are not offering offering addoration, it only helps us to think about and imagine, like that picture, of the saint, or Mary or Jesus and our prayer is directly to them.

The origins of the the use of statues and images were a tool to teach and inspire. The stain glass most offten depicted biblical scenes, the statues showed an aspect of a saint's life.

Peace,
FAB

This sums it up really well.

mangy dog · #8 Jul 30, '08, 8:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikew262

I'm not sure this is the right area to post this, but I'll give it a go.

I was hanging out on a Baptist forum yesterday and specifically on a thread that dealt with the Catholic Church. One poster (former Catholic) brought up his objection to the CC's use of statues and images which he claimed was in violation of the 1st commandment.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

I read the CCC on this subject, and IMO, it kind of tap dances around it and I really wasn't satisfied with the explanation of why the Church has statues and images.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the statues and images within the CC and I personally see nothing wrong with them. However, the commandment is pretty clear on this from what I can see, see the bolded parts. It would seem any likeness or image, or statue of anything in heaven (Jesus, Mary, saints) clearly violates the commandment.

Comments?

Why would God Himself have Moses fashion an ark with the likeness of Cherubims, wings extended over and touching - on top of the Ark of the Covenant? An image from heaven huh?

Ask your friend if he/she thinks that these images should 1) be destroyed 2) if that will bring him or her back to the catholic church 3) if he/she will open up his/her wallet/purse and destroy the picures of his/her family.

We are not talking about images of baphomet or Isis....we're talking about "our family". The saints that have gone on before us. Jesus' intimate friends, canonized for their saintly lives, lives that we are supposed to imitate and venerate.

Tell your friend the difference between - dulia; latria and hyper-dulia.

Your friend sounds to me like he/she is jealous or nostalgic of the richness of tradition of the One, True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church.

TheDoctor · #9 Jul 30, '08, 9:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikew262

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth...It would seem any likeness or image, or statue of anything in heaven (Jesus, Mary, saints) clearly violates the commandment.

The simple answer is that you are misreading the text (or more specifically, misreading this translation of the Greek).

It is not "don't make graven images" AND/OR "don't make likenesses of anything in heaven or earth or water"

It is "don't make graven images of anything in heaven or in the earth or in the water".

Does that help?

mikew262 · #10 Jul 31, '08, 4:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by als10062008

Venerating an image or a statue of the Blessed Mother or a saint or a crucifix isn't a sin. These images and statues can be used to meditate on the love of God and the sacrifice of Jesus' death.

What is sinful is making the object your God (think of the golden calf in the Old Testament). In this case, loving the statue or image above the relationship you have with God would be sinful. But there is no problem with meditating before an image or statue.

In general, I agree with you, but that still doesn't address the "nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above" part. To me, thats pretty clear. Do not make any image of anything that is in Heaven above. Jesus, Mary and all the saints are in Heaven above.

mikew262 · #11 Jul 31, '08, 4:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by thistle

http://www.catholic.com/library/do_c...ip_statues.asp

I've read that and I've always agreed with it. However, IMO, it tap dances around the fact that Scripture says "nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above". This sounds pretty clear to me, and least on the surface, the Church seems in direct violation of it. Jesus, Mary, and saints all are in Heaven. When it says we will not make any likeness of anything in heaven above, well...

The only way I see around it, would be to interpret heaven as the sky and not actually heaven. However, that could be a real stretch.

mikew262 · #12 Jul 31, '08, 4:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAB

This is one of the oldest aurguments used to bash Catholics.

First, God came to earth and died for use, in such he showed himself to us, he has allowed us not only to call him by name but to remember him through our images and art.

The best explaination for the for our statues and images that I use, is to ask the person if they have a picture of a loved one in their wallet or purse. Ask them when they look at it what do they think about, why do they touch it or even kiss it. Are they worshiping the picture? The answer is usually because it helps them to remember the person and to think about them. Then tell them it is the same with our statues and images. We are not praying to the staute,to it, we are not offering offering addoration, it only helps us to think about and imagine, like that picture, of the saint, or Mary or Jesus and our prayer is directly to them.

The origins of the the use of statues and images were a tool to teach and inspire. The stain glass most offten depicted biblical scenes, the statues showed an aspect of a saint's life.

Peace,
FAB

I've always agreed with your premise and kind of still do, however... see my other answers above.

mikew262 · #13 Jul 31, '08, 4:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangy dog

Why would God Himself have Moses fashion an ark with the likeness of Cherubims, wings extended over and touching - on top of the Ark of the Covenant? An image from heaven huh?

Because in this case, God himself commanded it.

Pier · #14 Jul 31, '08, 5:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikew262

Because in this case, God himself commanded it.

Exactly...

This was an order from God - by Him, and for Him, which is the example that His Church follows.

mangy dog · #15 Jul 31, '08, 6:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikew262

Because in this case, God himself commanded it.

....Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loosen on earth will be loosened in heaven...

Not withstanding this comment by God the Son...

What would be acceptable? A cross instead of a crucifix? That's very protestant.

Eliminate the image of the Immaculate, Perpetual Virgin Mother of God?

Eliminate the image of St. Joseph?

Eliminate the image of St. Michael Archangel?

Eliminate the image of the patron saint of the specific church.?

If the statues and images of our beloved saints and martyrs offends you....then remain - whatever: Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical etc etc etc. and while you're at it, destroy the pictures of your loved ones, for those are also images and it seems that images offend you.