Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Aug 4, '08, 10:04 am
eelpis eelpis is offline
Account Under Review
 
Join Date: November 16, 2007
Posts: 665
Religion: Catholic
Default Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

History seems to say so, in 1535 pope Paul III promulgated a new breviary that was composed by Card Quignonez-32 years later it was scrapped. Much of the critique against that breviary could be applied to the Novus Ordo. Knowing this, it seems that the pope can err in promulgating a liturgy and that critique can be justified vis avis the liturgical reform after the second Vatican Council. And it seems that hoping the Novus Ordo be scrapped is morally justafiable
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Aug 4, '08, 10:08 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 19, 2007
Posts: 8,745
Religion: Orthodox
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

The doctrine of papal infallibility does NOT mean that the pope cannot err in a merely prudential pastoral decision.

The OF, celebrated according to the GIRM, without innovations or dumb ideas of the celebrant, is NOT a "bad liturgy."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Aug 4, '08, 10:10 am
bilop bilop is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2006
Posts: 3,639
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eelpis View Post
History seems to say so, in 1535 pope Paul III promulgated a new breviary that was composed by Card Quignonez-32 years later it was scrapped. Much of the critique against that breviary could be applied to the Novus Ordo. Knowing this, it seems that the pope can err in promulgating a liturgy and that critique can be justified vis avis the liturgical reform after the second Vatican Council.
Of course. The Pope can (and has) erred in many realms: liturgy, politics, history, science, etc.

The Pope is ONLY protected by the Holy Spirit when exercising the Magisterium of the Church to speak on faith and morals. Not in any other sphere.

God Bless
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Aug 4, '08, 10:12 am
eelpis eelpis is offline
Account Under Review
 
Join Date: November 16, 2007
Posts: 665
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
The doctrine of papal infallibility does NOT mean that the pope cannot err in a merely prudential pastoral decision.

The OF, celebrated according to the GIRM, without innovations or dumb ideas of the celebrant, is NOT a "bad liturgy."

Well there are people who think it is, and rather a lot of them out there, those who want a reform of the reform and those who want a restoration of the books from 1962.

Critique against a promulgated liturgy is not morally wrong.

Last edited by eelpis; Aug 4, '08 at 10:29 am.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Aug 4, '08, 10:13 am
bilop bilop is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2006
Posts: 3,639
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
The OF, celebrated according to the GIRM, without innovations or dumb ideas of the celebrant, is NOT a "bad liturgy."
I agree (I'd give it a B-, not an F), BUT, that's up to the individual to say. Every Catholic must assent that it is a valid liturgy, but no one has to like it. Just like people are free to dislike the TLM ot the Divine Liturgy of John Chrisostom.

God Bless
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Aug 4, '08, 11:28 am
Timothysis Timothysis is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2008
Posts: 3,507
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eelpis View Post
History seems to say so, in 1535 pope Paul III promulgated a new breviary that was composed by Card Quignonez-32 years later it was scrapped. Much of the critique against that breviary could be applied to the Novus Ordo. Knowing this, it seems that the pope can err in promulgating a liturgy and that critique can be justified vis avis the liturgical reform after the second Vatican Council. And it seems that hoping the Novus Ordo be scrapped is morally justafiable
Yet another attempt to find an occasion in the past to set a false precedent to disparage something that you don't care for in the today's Church...
__________________
"I used to be mean
But I'm changing my scene
And I'm doing the best that I can..."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Aug 4, '08, 12:10 pm
eelpis eelpis is offline
Account Under Review
 
Join Date: November 16, 2007
Posts: 665
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothysis View Post
Yet another attempt to find an occasion in the past to set a false precedent to disparage something that you don't care for in the today's Church...
It's not. It just shows that people are wrong to badmouth traditionalists who don't like the Novus Ordo.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Aug 4, '08, 12:17 pm
Genesis315 Genesis315 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2005
Posts: 8,827
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eelpis View Post
History seems to say so, in 1535 pope Paul III promulgated a new breviary that was composed by Card Quignonez-32 years later it was scrapped. Much of the critique against that breviary could be applied to the Novus Ordo. Knowing this, it seems that the pope can err in promulgating a liturgy and that critique can be justified vis avis the liturgical reform after the second Vatican Council. And it seems that hoping the Novus Ordo be scrapped is morally justafiable
These things are not immutable. It doesn't mean it's "bad" necessarily if it is put aside or changed later. But yes, the ordinary form could be put aside and it's lawful to have preferences in regards to liturgical books, provided you acknowledge their validity and licitness.
__________________
"Let prayer delight thee more than disputations, and the charity which buildeth up more than the knowledge which puffeth up."--St. Robert Bellarmine
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Aug 4, '08, 12:28 pm
I_Believe's Avatar
I_Believe I_Believe is offline
Banned
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2006
Posts: 2,505
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
The doctrine of papal infallibility does NOT mean that the pope cannot err in a merely prudential pastoral decision.

The OF, celebrated according to the GIRM, without innovations or dumb ideas of the celebrant, is NOT a "bad liturgy."
That's true. If one opens a Missal and examines the Ordinary of the Mass, there is nothing non-catholic there.

IMO, there are too many options, which may enable a bit too much wiggle room for some to "customize" their own version of the NO. Abuses creep in, and, throw poor catechesis and less than inspiring homilies into the mix, and next thing you know, the Liturgy itself is blamed.

Then again, as laity, I'm lowest on the "totem pole", so what do I know.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Aug 4, '08, 12:45 pm
I_Believe's Avatar
I_Believe I_Believe is offline
Banned
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2006
Posts: 2,505
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothysis View Post
Yet another attempt to find an occasion in the past to set a false precedent to disparage something that you don't care for in the today's Church...
Tim, can you at least acknowlege that there are men walking the halls of the Vatican that share the concerns of the traditionalists ?

That's what get's lost in these discussions.

A year and a half ago, when Archbishop Ranjith, or Cardinal Hoyos was quoted on the forum, we'd sometimes hear, "well, he doesn't speak for the Pope", or similar.

These men are still speaking out today. Loudly. If the Pope was concerned with their words, they would have been told to tone it down a bit, would they not ?

Look at how the Pope has been sending the message of reverence in regards to receiving Holy Communion. He's not silencing Archbishop Ranjith. He's of like mind.

Please don't let the stereotype of the "average bitter traditionalist" distract you from following the lead of those in Rome.

Last edited by I_Believe; Aug 4, '08 at 1:02 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Aug 4, '08, 1:20 pm
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2004
Posts: 9,411
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Believe View Post
Tim, can you at least acknowlege that there are men walking the halls of the Vatican that share the concerns of the traditionalists ?
Sure...but can the "traditionalists" acknowledge that many faithful, orthodox Catholics don't share their concerns, indeed, that MOST faithful and orthodox Catholics don't share those concerns? We should all be concerned with reverence, obviously, but that cannot be absolutely equated with scrapping the OF. Many times, I've read "traditionalists" state that the EF is "objectively" superior. It isn't, it's only subjectively superior to THEM. It features things that I might agree are superior, but overall, I find the OF superior for a variety of reasons and I strongly suspect that most Catholics (and yes, THINKING, reverent, faithful, Orthodox Catholics) would make a decision, if it were put up them, based solely on the use of the vernacular.
__________________
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Aug 4, '08, 2:27 pm
I_Believe's Avatar
I_Believe I_Believe is offline
Banned
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2006
Posts: 2,505
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

I don't know why you are popping up out of nowhere and throwing this my way after I just defended your favorite Liturgy (post # 9), but I'll go ahead and bite

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV View Post
Sure...but can the "traditionalists" acknowledge that many faithful, orthodox Catholics don't share their concerns, indeed, that MOST faithful and orthodox Catholics don't share those concerns?
Well, I'd say that is correct. Most catholics in the pews have never assisted at an EF Mass. Most are not aware of BXVI's SP. Most are not even aware of the concerns of traditionalists. This forum is not an indication of the average catholic's views. Only a tiny percentage of Roman Catholics have visited this forum.
Quote:
We should all be concerned with reverence, obviously, but that cannot be absolutely equated with scrapping the OF. Many times, I've read "traditionalists" state that the EF is "objectively" superior. It isn't, it's only subjectively superior to THEM. It features things that I might agree are superior, but overall, I find the OF superior for a variety of reasons and I strongly suspect that most Catholics (and yes, THINKING, reverent, faithful, Orthodox Catholics) would make a decision, if it were put up them, based solely on the use of the vernacular.
Well, that's quite an assumption. If all those you are taking the liberty to speak for, actually knew what all the fuss is about, then yes, I'd say most would still stick with all they've ever known. So your assumption would indeed be proven correct as far as sheer numbers go.

But please don't think you are going to convince me that the average catholic in the U.S. is a "THINKING, reverent, faithful, Orthodox Catholic". It's not their fault they aren't. I blame their pastors.

Don't tell me someone who is slated to be a lector or EMHC shows up wearing shorts(men), or revealing attire(women), is a "THINKING, reverent, faithful, Orthodox Catholic" either.

I don't blame this on the OF itself, but I can attest these sad displays of irreverence don't tend to be found at the Forma extraordinaria. (btw way, that's Extraordinray form in venacular )

Your Venacular flag is going to have to be put on a stick and be waved by hand. It's a preferrence based on opinion, not based on any ecclesiastical or theological grounds.

Ever read the Veterum Sapientia of the man who called VII ?

Responsibility for enforcement

1. Bishops and superiors-general of religious orders shall take pains to ensure that in their seminaries and in their schools where adolescents are trained for the priesthood, all shall studiously observe the Apostolic See's decision in this matter and obey these Our prescriptions most carefully.

2. In the exercise of their paternal care they shall be on their guard lest anyone under their jurisdiction, eager for revolutionary changes, writes against the use of Latin in the teaching of the higher sacred studies or in the Liturgy, or through prejudice makes light of the Holy See's will in this regard or interprets it falsely.


http://www.adoremus.org/VeterumSapientia.html

Come on JKIRK, I think H.H.John XXIII was pretty clear on this issue. And don't forget, the Novus Ordo Missal was introduced in latin was it not ?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Aug 4, '08, 2:29 pm
eelpis eelpis is offline
Account Under Review
 
Join Date: November 16, 2007
Posts: 665
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

I'm not saying that the NO is invalid or illicit, I think it has some real good qualities. I'm just wanting to make a point that to hold the TLM as better is not illoyalty to the pope or the second Vatican council.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Aug 4, '08, 2:32 pm
Timothysis Timothysis is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2008
Posts: 3,507
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eelpis View Post
I'm not saying that the NO is invalid or illicit, I think it has some real good qualities. I'm just wanting to make a point that to hold the TLM as better is not illoyalty to the pope or the second Vatican council.
The TLM is not "better" than any other liturgy; that is your choice of words and your personal preference. Going to TLM is not going to make you holier, more saintly or get you into heaven any sooner than anyone else. I suggest that you dispense with this juvenile mentality in regards to the Mass and the way it is celebrated and focus upon your own place in God's universe.
__________________
"I used to be mean
But I'm changing my scene
And I'm doing the best that I can..."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Aug 4, '08, 2:46 pm
eelpis eelpis is offline
Account Under Review
 
Join Date: November 16, 2007
Posts: 665
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Can a pope promulgate bad liturgy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothysis View Post
The TLM is not "better" than any other liturgy; that is your choice of words and your personal preference. Going to TLM is not going to make you holier, more saintly or get you into heaven any sooner than anyone else. I suggest that you dispense with this juvenile mentality in regards to the Mass and the way it is celebrated and focus upon your own place in God's universe.
Yes, I really think that more grace come to us with a liturgy that is reverent, "ex opero operato" nonetheless. With more graces available it's easier to get to heaven. The liturgy is just a part of the whole of Christian life but since it's the source and summit, it has got to be important, don't you think?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sharia professor invites Pope to public debate Eden Catholic News 8 Feb 8, '08 9:10 am
Should the Pope apologize for using the quote? (Part 1) Mankind Non-Catholic Religions 9 Jan 20, '08 12:34 pm
Dogma, the Pope, ssa, and a Jesuit's point view ben182 Moral Theology 17 Nov 4, '07 8:03 pm
Is the Pope in danger? Image of God Catholic News 74 Sep 20, '06 6:55 am



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8350Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: awsiukiewicz
5089CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4409Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3858SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3679Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3268Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3247Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3218Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3085For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 7:29 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.