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  #1  
Old Aug 7, '08, 10:16 pm
brockmac brockmac is offline
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Default Trinity vs. Oneness

I have a family member who, many years ago, left the Catholic faith and joined a Oneness Pentecostal congregation. I recently visited her and spent many hours (in a conversation she initiated), listening to her attack the doctrine of the Trinity as a 3rd Century innovation as well as attacking the Trinitarian Baptismal formula, infant baptism, and baptism by pouring.

I cited the fact that when Jesus prayed in the garden, He asked for thy (the Father's) will be done, not His (the Son's). I asked how one person could have two distinct wills. I also pointed out that Jesus said he would send another paraclete (the Holy Spirit). I also mentioned the baptism of Jesus, and John 1.

As for the baptismal formula, her argument is that (according to the notes in the New Jerusalem Bible) the formula used in Matthew 28 was likely modified from the original oral tradition based on the development of Trinitarian doctrine. She supports this by pointing out that every example of Baptism in Acts is "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." My explanation of this is that the phrase "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" is to identify on whose authority, and under whose directions the Baptisms were being performed, not to describe the specific ritual.

Of course I was not telling her anything she had not heard before and she insisted that the doctrine of the Trinity was not formulated until the 3rd Century and that her belief in One God who is not Triune is the "Apostolic" view.

I ask two things. First and foremost, pray that she may be brought back from her apostacy and recognize the Triune nature of our God. Second, if anyone has any compelling points, of course relying on scripture alone, since that is the authority she recognizes, that demonstrate the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead, please respond with these.
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  #2  
Old Aug 7, '08, 10:29 pm
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tGette tGette is offline
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Default Re: Trinity vs. Oneness

Will certainly pray for her:
How about now!?!

+
Most Holy Trinity,
You show us the perfect example of Love because you are Love itself. Please fill the heart of brockmac's family member so she may live her Christian life in the fullness of knowing how to follow the example of Your Love.
Help her to recognize that God our Father Loved God the Son into the world by the power of God the Holy Spirit! Three unique persons, yet still One God, forever and ever!
Amen! Amen!
+


Without Scripture references off the top of my head (I am sure, God willing, someone will give them) I know the Bible states individually that the Father is God, Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God.

When Jesus said "I and the Father are one" does that make her believe God is a two person nature? Or when he says "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" Or when after Thomas felt the wounds on Jesus' body he proclaimed "My Lord and my God!"

The Trinity for me shows that we will never truly understand the nature of God. So analogies can never come close, but here goes:
The triangle...each corner is a unique part of the triange...yet without one it would not be a triangle.

Though gauging by your post, she has heard a lot of the classic analogies and so on.

I am hoping someone can give more Scriptural help for you.
__________________
"Do not worry about tomorrow; tomorrow will take care of itself. Sufficient for a day is its own evil." -Jesus-

+O Holy Spirit,
who comes from the Love of the Father and Son
Through the prayers of Mary, our Mother
May God's will be done unto us all!
Amen, Amen!+


tGette - Pronounced: T-"JET"
  #3  
Old Aug 7, '08, 11:21 pm
fbl9 fbl9 is offline
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Default Re: Trinity vs. Oneness

hi brockmac i don't have scripture quotes for you either but i do have a suggestion try looking up these threads 1) Holy Trinity 2)confused on oneness 3)the concept of the Triune God...these threads contain debates with oneness pentacostals which will help you know where they are coming from and how they arrive at their conculsions..this way in your discussions you will have a better idea what to expect and have a reply too.
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"it's hard to light a candle,easier to curse the darkness instead" LRotD by NightWish
  #4  
Old Aug 8, '08, 3:54 am
Frost Frost is offline
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Join Date: October 11, 2006
Posts: 91
Religion: Lutheran
Default Re: Trinity vs. Oneness

Quote:
Originally Posted by brockmac View Post
I have a family member who, many years ago, left the Catholic faith and joined a Oneness Pentecostal congregation. I recently visited her and spent many hours (in a conversation she initiated), listening to her attack the doctrine of the Trinity as a 3rd Century innovation as well as attacking the Trinitarian Baptismal formula, infant baptism, and baptism by pouring.

I cited the fact that when Jesus prayed in the garden, He asked for thy (the Father's) will be done, not His (the Son's). I asked how one person could have two distinct wills. I also pointed out that Jesus said he would send another paraclete (the Holy Spirit). I also mentioned the baptism of Jesus, and John 1.

As for the baptismal formula, her argument is that (according to the notes in the New Jerusalem Bible) the formula used in Matthew 28 was likely modified from the original oral tradition based on the development of Trinitarian doctrine. She supports this by pointing out that every example of Baptism in Acts is "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." My explanation of this is that the phrase "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" is to identify on whose authority, and under whose directions the Baptisms were being performed, not to describe the specific ritual.

Of course I was not telling her anything she had not heard before and she insisted that the doctrine of the Trinity was not formulated until the 3rd Century and that her belief in One God who is not Triune is the "Apostolic" view.

I ask two things. First and foremost, pray that she may be brought back from her apostacy and recognize the Triune nature of our God. Second, if anyone has any compelling points, of course relying on scripture alone, since that is the authority she recognizes, that demonstrate the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead, please respond with these.

These verses clearly states that Jesus and The Holy Spirit is God, and thereby confirmes that God is Triune:

John 1: 1
John 20: 28
Acts 5: 3- 5
Acts 20: 28
Matt 28: 19
Also, compare Revelations 2: 8 with Isaiah 44: 6
  #5  
Old Aug 8, '08, 5:04 am
RobHom RobHom is offline
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Default Re: Trinity vs. Oneness

Here's a link to some "Bible" Scriptures.....and one would presume that they would be in her Bible as well..... I think they answer more than one of her claims:

http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=2&q=Fath...ly+Ghost&b=drb

That search engine in the on-line version of the Douay-Rheims... is really helpful!!
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