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Old Aug 16, '08, 11:50 pm
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
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Default LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

This sermon was given by Joseph Smith in memory of an LDS Elder named King Follett. It is taken directly from the LDS webpage, it is a classic of LDS literature.
Part 1
Part 2

Here are some quotes that I felt worth mentioning. I tried to put in only the essentials, so there actually gaps of unquoted text. YOU WILL BE STUNNED.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.


I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible; I will make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of creation in the Bible—Berosheit. I want to analyze the word. Baith—in, by, through, and everything else. Rosh—the head, Sheit—grammatical termination. When the inspired man wrote it, he did not put the baith there. An old Jew without any authority added the word; he thought it too bad to begin to talk about the head! It read first, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods." That is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signifies to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God. Learned men can teach you no more than what I have told you. Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council.

The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at the time.


Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation, say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God, and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost; they account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him.


You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer, "Doesn't the Bible say he created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.


I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man; but it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall therefore just touch upon it, for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead—namely, the soul—the mind of man —the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through; if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.


We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, "God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body."


I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man—on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.


The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.


The contention in heaven was—Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he would save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.
At long last I have seen it with my own eyes. Claims I have heard mentioned numerous times, but I had doubts. Claims I have seen denied, but I didn't know who to believe. Claims which carry so much weight! Claims which are utterly blasphemous, heretical and anti-Christian....all at a level I never thought existed!

I STRONGLY suggest anyone interested in Catholic apologetics (at any level) should invest 30 min of their time to read the whole sermon. This is NEED TO KNOW information when it comes to dealing with Mormonism.

The discussion floor on this one is pretty much wide open.
  #2  
Old Aug 17, '08, 12:28 am
xixxvmcm85 xixxvmcm85 is offline
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

Why waste 30 minutes on this when just 5 minutes of perusing the Journal of Discourses will suffice (Thanks to our buddy Brigham Young)?
  #3  
Old Aug 17, '08, 5:18 am
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

The King Follett sermon was revolutionary and it was designed to turn christianity on its head. If one reads this sermon with an unbias eye, one can read the revolutionary nature of the words.

It also shows the intellect of Joseph Smith. The lds case for a preexistence is a strong one. We need to remember that JS claimed to have seen the father and the son and they were exalted men as the Virgin Mary when appearing to Bernedette and to the Fatima children was a exalted woman.
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Old Aug 17, '08, 8:49 am
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xixxvmcm85 View Post
Why waste 30 minutes on this when just 5 minutes of perusing the Journal of Discourses will suffice (Thanks to our buddy Brigham Young)?
Because the JoD can be brushed off as mere opinion of Young.

The KF Sermon is by Joseph Smith, republished in the major LDS teaching magazine, called a classic of LDS literature, etc. Further, it has Joseph Smith repeatedly contrasting himself and his teachings to that of false prophets, claiming everyone before him got it wrong, and claiming direct and special inspiration of the Holy Spirit in his teachings which must be obeyed. Smith is speaking on the dogmatic level here.
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Old Aug 17, '08, 8:56 am
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by why me View Post
The King Follett sermon was revolutionary and it was designed to turn christianity on its head. If one reads this sermon with an unbias eye, one can read the revolutionary nature of the words.

It also shows the intellect of Joseph Smith. The lds case for a preexistence is a strong one.
I agree, it was revolutionary because nobody in Christendom up to that point made such radical and extreme claims. They were so radical that the system as a whole cannot even be considered on the fringe of orthodoxy.

The idea that God the Father was once a man and had to work out his salvation in fear and trembling fits into the realm of Paganism rather than Christianity.

Quote:
We need to remember that JS claimed to have seen the father and the son and they were exalted men as the Virgin Mary when appearing to Bernedette and to the Fatima children was a exalted woman.
The children never mistook Mary for God. Yes, She was an exalted woman, but we mean something very different than the LDS do on that point. Mary did not become a god and God was not progressing.
  #6  
Old Aug 17, '08, 10:16 am
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oneGODoneCHURCH oneGODoneCHURCH is offline
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

Quote:
=why me;4067772]The King Follett sermon was revolutionary and it was designed to turn christianity on its head. If one reads this sermon with an unbias eye, one can read the revolutionary nature of the words.
This was not revolutionary. this was taking the Jewish and Christian God and turning him into a pagan god, one of many others. This was blasphemy. The very never of a mere man to say that he knows that the Great I AM was once no more than a mere man. It does away with the Whole Gospel. For what need is there of Christ salvation if we can become gods?



Quote:
It also shows the intellect of Joseph Smith. The lds case for a preexistence is a strong one. We need to remember that JS claimed to have seen the father and the son and they were exalted men as the Virgin Mary when appearing to Bernedette and to the Fatima children was a exalted woman.
It shows the deceit that smith was and has been able to pour out upon people. that there are people so blinded by Satan that they have fallen for this. As to what or who appeared to him let us remember that the Devil can come as a angle of light. And really good lies have just enough truth in them to cause you to wonder .
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Old Aug 17, '08, 10:58 am
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

Yes, I think Mormons forget just how different this truly is. The very first sunday school lesson I attended at the LDS church was on exaltation which explicitly taught that God is an exalted man. Even though I knew beforehand that Mormonism taught this doctrine, I was still stunned by it, I mean it was like getting air knocked out of me-- it was so surreal to see everyone there just take it in stride like it was matter of fact when it was so... strange. I became a Mormon anyway, in part because the difference of the theology excited me and then I lost track of how different it all was after a year or so.
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Old Aug 17, '08, 11:51 am
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

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Originally Posted by Catholic Dude View Post

Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation, say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God, and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost; they account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him.
that alone should show anyone how strongly he was being influenced by the devil.

... or that he was mentally ill.
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Old Aug 17, '08, 12:20 pm
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

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Originally Posted by jen fla View Post
.

... or that he was mentally ill.
He was flamingly mentally ill by the time he preached that. Scared people enough to want him dead. Probably some of the same people who contributed to his insanity. Of course, he was always nutty.
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Old Aug 17, '08, 12:32 pm
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

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Originally Posted by nebula View Post
Yes, I think Mormons forget just how different this truly is. The very first sunday school lesson I attended at the LDS church was on exaltation which explicitly taught that God is an exalted man. Even though I knew beforehand that Mormonism taught this doctrine, I was still stunned by it, I mean it was like getting air knocked out of me-- it was so surreal to see everyone there just take it in stride like it was matter of fact when it was so... strange. I became a Mormon anyway, in part because the difference of the theology excited me and then I lost track of how different it all was after a year or so.
I still am having trouble accepting the fact people today (using the Bible no less) embrace this. It is one of things you almost have to be born into to really embrace.

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Originally Posted by jen fla View Post
that alone should show anyone how strongly he was being influenced by the devil.

... or that he was mentally ill.
I agree, the whole sermon is FULL of such talk.
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Old Aug 17, '08, 12:38 pm
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

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Originally Posted by Catholic Dude View Post
I still am having trouble accepting the fact people today (using the Bible no less) embrace this. It is one of things you almost have to be born into to really embrace.


I agree, the whole sermon is FULL of such talk.

I think the thing is exposure. Once you are used to it, and once you see everyone around you, normal, nice people taking it in stride, it loses its punch fairly quickly.
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Old Aug 17, '08, 1:01 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

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Originally Posted by jen fla View Post
that alone should show anyone how strongly he was being influenced by the devil.

... or that he was mentally ill.
This is why the church condemned Montanism. There is always a danger that a Seer or Channel like this is deforming the faith. At the time the church determined that the Age of Revelation had closed and we were to stick with the received teaching of the Apostles as conserved and taught by the bishops.

Ironically the Montanists do not seem to have introduced much unconventional in their time, aside from their unusual claim to giving voice to the Holy Spirit, and attracted such a powerful intellectual catholic figure as Tertullian.

This Joseph Smith stuff is amazing.
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Old Aug 17, '08, 1:22 pm
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

To WhyMe

As a Christian Whyme I read in Joseph Smiths words not only the account of the Fall itself but I hear the very voice of the tempter in His words. I read them clearly. Satan would have you believe that God is an exalted man, that you to can become a god in your own right. This is why we have sin in the world, this is precisely why we need Jesus in our lives, he shows us the opposite of what Joseph and Satan are putting foreward. It’s day and night, it’s the difference between good and evil. Christian theology over Mormon theology. We must let God be God and follow His Son to eternal life. We are created by God through Jesus, we are created beings, God is creation itself… Are only goal is to be loved by God and to be with Him, to share in what Jesus has always had. Not to become a god.

God Bless
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Old Aug 17, '08, 2:23 pm
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by why me View Post
The King Follett sermon was revolutionary blasphemous and sick
I fixed this for you.

Quote:
It also shows the intellect megalomania of Joseph Smith.
I fixed that for you, too. Hope that's OK!
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Old Aug 17, '08, 2:53 pm
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Default Re: LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

WOW! is right, while reading it all I could think off was boy the devil is sure speaking to him,
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