Morality and Being Forced To Do Something

jjb5985 · #1 Aug 17, '08, 2:58 pm

Some recent Ask and Apologetic questions have raised some of my own questions. The idea that it is objectively wrong to deny one's faith even under gunpoint has got the wheels turning.

I can understand that it is wrong to deny one's faith, even at the risk of death, but then I wonder if it is wrong to steal from a store if you are being forced to by gunpoint? Or let's say it is 5 dollars you must steal from an innocent person or else the person will kill you and your family? Obviously culpability will be diminished and the action is probably only a venial sin to begin with given the limited amount of money, but will the person under duress still be held somewhat accountable or would the ideal be to accept death? I know no venial sin is worth saving even the entire world, how does this fit in here?

I'm wondering at what point is it wrong to do something even under gunpoint (duress) or if all these that are objectively wrong still remain objectively wrong even when being more or less required to do it under severe punishment. Mortal sin requires full consent of the will, but I suppose if gunpoint doesn't take away full consent when denying faith, it wouldn't in any other number of lesser situations.

If one is being "forced" to consent to a wrongdoing or not act to stop it when normally required to do so because for instance they and everyone they love will be killed, what is the moral action?

Hope this makes sense, I don't feel too strongly one way or another. I was always under the assumption that if someone forced you do steal or else they would kill you, it was ok and they would take the blame and not you. Now I'm not so sure. I just want the Church's teachings so I can obide by and defend them.

zachattack936 · #2 Aug 17, '08, 3:11 pm

That rule only applies to denying God. As a follower of Christ, you are to never deny your faith under any circumstances. If you were killed for not denying your faith you would become a martyr and enjoy the graces of God in Heaven. You keep trying to equate denying God with things like stealing $5, the two are not comparable.

The apologist wasn't trying to say that you have to refuse every demand if your ever held at gun point, he was just referring to the denial of God. In other cases it would probably depend, but if there were sin committed under gunpoint, it would probably be a reduced sin if any do to the circumstances. Now of course that has its limits and you need to use common sense. Like if was your life vs. a family's lives then I'd probably say common sense dictates you should sacrifice yourself, but that's the moral good, I'm not sure if its a moral law however. Perhaps those extreme cases should be asked to an apologist.

jjb5985 · #3 Aug 17, '08, 3:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachattack936

That rule only applies to denying God. As a follower of Christ, you are to never deny your faith under any circumstances. If you were killed for not denying your faith you would become a martyr and enjoy the graces of God in Heaven. You keep trying to equate denying God with things like stealing $5, the two are not comparable.

The apologist wasn't trying to say that you have to refuse every demand if your ever held at gun point, he was just referring to the denial of God. In other cases it would probably depend, but if there were sin committed under gunpoint, it would probably be a reduced sin if any do to the circumstances. Now of course that has its limits and you need to use common sense. Like if was your life vs. a family's lives then I'd probably say common sense dictates you should sacrifice yourself, but that's the moral good, I'm not sure if its a moral law however. Perhaps those extreme cases should be asked to an apologist.

I wasn't intending to equate stealing $5 with denying God, I was just wondering if there was a line drawn somewhere or if every objective wrong is still wrong under gunpoint. I appreciate your answer and explanation. I didn't really have an arguement, I just wanted to get the Church's teachings as that is the ultimate authority.

zachattack936 · #4 Aug 17, '08, 3:44 pm

I don't think there's a specific Canon Law that deals with specifics. It will vary by situation. The only absolute not under gun point is denying God. You be the judge of what is truly right under other circumstances I guess.

UndertheRadar · #5 Aug 17, '08, 3:51 pm

I think St. Dominic Savio has the right idea here: "Death rather than sin." That includes mortal and venial. Christ, who is the Son of God and has the power to do anything, came down of his own accord to die for us. Why should giving our life be so hard when we think of this? We as Catholics are called to die unto ourselves and give everything to God, even our lives if we are fortunate enough to be given this privilege of martyrdom.

Speaking hypothetically, if I sinned because I feared losing my life, I would feel that I had betrayed God, but also myself. God gave me an intellect by which I can reason and know that sin must never be committed, and going against my judgment for selfish motives would be an injustice to myself. God would be giving me a chance to follow in the footsteps of Christ: He gave His life for me even though he did not have to, so it would be a honor to show Him my love by doing the same (although the sacrifices would hardly be comparable )

The Adversery · #6 Aug 17, '08, 7:11 pm

Actually, considering what Christians considers immoral, there's a lot of things you are technichally forced to do if you want to go by the book.

Plus, you are forgetting that not everyone will be able to think clearly in such a situation, since the desire to survive is also wired into the human brain. Since that would basically mean we were working under panic, would that count as diminished capacity?

Caesar517 · #7 Aug 17, '08, 7:24 pm

Excellent topic. I was thinking about the same thing recently (after reading that same AAA question). Here's something else I want too put out there: What about war crimes? What about those soldiers who are forced to murder and do the dirty work of dictators or else watch their family die?

jjb5985 · #8 Aug 17, '08, 8:38 pm

With reference to death rather than sin, this is what I was thinking. I know dying is better than commiting even a venial sin, the question is "is it a sin?" For instance, if someone puts a gun to your head and says punch your innocent friend in the face until you break their nose, who commited sin? Just the guy with the gun for making you punch someone, or both the guy with the gun and you (with less culpability but still sin) if you actually go along with it? Would the only morally justifiable thing be to accept death, or would there be no sin on your part and therefore no need to deny the gun mans wishes knowing he will take the blame morally?

I also know culpability will be diminished regardless. I'm just wondering if it will be eliminated all together or transferred entirely to the person doing to forcing, or whether you will still be guitly of some sort of sin.

War like situations and Nazi camp type situations are abundant in my thinking of these sort of situations. I would rather die then sin ideally. But if there is no sin given the circumstances, then living would be better than dying for what you thought was a sin but really wasn't. Hence, figuring out these sorts of things before I may ever find myself in that situation.

With regards to denying one's faith, as I understand (and believe) it, it is never acceptable, but it just prompted my thinking to what else could never be acceptable given similar circumstances.

UndertheRadar · #9 Aug 17, '08, 9:06 pm

My response to the question of "is it a sin" is this: A sin is a sin no matter how strongly one is pushed to commit it. The gravity of the sin will surely depend on the situation like this, in which I would venture to say in most cases would be venial.

NTOT · #10 Aug 19, '08, 3:12 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UndertheRadar

I think St. Dominic Savio has the right idea here: "Death rather than sin." That includes mortal and venial. Christ, who is the Son of God and has the power to do anything, came down of his own accord to die for us. Why should giving our life be so hard when we think of this? We as Catholics are called to die unto ourselves and give everything to God, even our lives if we are fortunate enough to be given this privilege of martyrdom.

That is an awesome way to look at it as a privilege.

Quote:

Speaking hypothetically, if I sinned because I feared losing my life, I would feel that I had betrayed God, but also myself.

And when one considers that they are exchanging sin for ones life, how deceptive can the devil be, after all he is the master of lies. So one sins to preserve his life at gunpoint and is shot anyways. Now he just committed sin and lost his life at the same time. That is a scary thought.

jjb5985 · #11 Aug 19, '08, 4:43 pm

Yes, I don't believe it is ok to sin in order to save one's life. I just wonder if it is always still considered a sin when it was done against your will.

Like you must take a dollar from a strangers wallet and not give it back to them or your whole family will be killed. Sense you didn't want to take the dollar and only did so to save lives and not to steal, is it still a sin? I realize there are situations where it is never ok to do something even to save lives, but is this one of them?

Dan Michael · #12 Aug 25, '08, 10:03 am

Quote:

Caesar517 What about war crimes? What about those soldiers who are forced to murder and do the dirty work of dictators or else watch their family die?

You just had to put this on the plate Caesar... I have spent some 40 years trying to figure this very thing out, personally! From a "Countries" view; from a "Global" view; from a type of "Gov't" view; from a "Civil" duty view; to a "Moral" view... and only go in 'circles'.
Are all leaders 'dictators' with the laws of the land set in their favor? Is 'democracy' the best (holy) type of Gov't? Is killing another in battle 'Morally acceptable'? (Try and tell my conscience that!!!) They were just like (us), with family back home, there because they too were fighting for their 'Country' (Gov't leaders so ordered). And neither of us were on "Our Own Soil"! What I got Medals for over-there would land me in Jail here. One does over-there what cannot be undone... and yes, I felt that Soul Sting from the first fire-fight on... even while ducking bullets.
Is the Kingdom of God a Democracy? Republic? Socialistic? Communistic? Or a Kingdom? I have took this a notch further then Caesar intended, but, it comes down to what is considered 'Being Forced'. The other options that would happen IF we did not. And how do we know that?