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  #31  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:11 am
estesbob estesbob is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StMarina303ad View Post
You seem to miss the fact that it they were in the Bible before the Church was established by Jesus. So yes, the Orthodox has maintained all the books and the Catholics and Protestants have removed some of them.

I'm sorry but I really do want to get drawn in another one of these Orthodox versus Catholic debates. To be honest I do not have any idea why there is so much animosity towards Catholics from the Orthodox. Now perhaps their is animosity towards Orthodox from some Catholics but quite frankly I don't know about the Orthodox to have an opinion.
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  #32  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:13 am
StMarina303ad StMarina303ad is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Catholic Dude View Post
I would like to see some Early Church Father support for your specific canon. I have not done much research into the issue, but I don't ever recall any ECF who embraced the Greek Orthodox Canon.
Catholic Dude, your comment makes no sense at all considering the fact that the Septuagint existed before Christ was born into this world. Christ used & quoted the Septuagint himself. The Greek Orthodox Church simply has maintained the use of the Septuagint without removing any of it's books that were in it (not in the appendix: such as 4th Macc.). As such the Greek Church has nothing to "prove"! It's the Roman Catholic's who removed the books of Sacred Scripture! The the Roman Catholic Church who must prove - twice in Sacred Scripture it warns people to NOT remove or add to Sacred Scripture. Why are the Roman Catholic in violation of this?
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  #33  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:15 am
StMarina303ad StMarina303ad is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by PerryJ View Post
If you believe they should be there did your faith add them back? Why not?
In my Faith: the Greek Orthodox Church never "added" anything back. The Greek Orthodox Church from the time of it's inception by the Apostle Andrew has maintained the Septuagint in it's entirety.

If your Faither doesn't have all the books of the Septuagint in your Old Testament, then you better start asking the leaders of your Church why it "removed" them!
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  #34  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:19 am
StMarina303ad StMarina303ad is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by MarcoPolo View Post
p.s. there is no "official English version" of the Catholic Bible.

p.s.s. in this paragraph you start by saying the Church "removed" certain books, but then proceed to argue that they just re-named or re-ordered them. Which is it? Perhaps if you provided a link to your source it might clear things up.
I wrote as clearly as possible. I apologize if you were not able to understand it.

There is 49 books in the Septuagint. The Orthodox Church maintains all 49 as they were originally ordered in the Septuagint.

The Roman Catholic Church has 46 books in the Old Testament it uses. The vatican's website shows that.

So by doing the math, it would appear that 3 entire books are missing; however, 1 of the 3 books the Catholics reordered by adding 1 as chapter 6 to Baruch. The other 2 entire books are missing altogether along with Psalm 151.

I hope this is more clear to you now.
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  #35  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:19 am
PerryJ PerryJ is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by StMarina303ad View Post
So here we have again Catholics accusing Protestants of removing books of the Old Testament...WHY DID THE ROMAN CATHOLICS ALSO REMOVE BOOKS FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT (Septuagint)?

I'll keep reading responses. Hopefully, someone will actually give an answer.
Please answer my question. If they should be in the Bible did your faith add them back? If not why not?

I will research this area; however, I find your statement has no basis. The DCs were removed because of Luther's personal fears and his losing a debate to Eck. Nothing more. The Dead Sea Scrolls have proven that the Protestant claim concerning the DC is totally unfounded. One can argue all they want and make up new arguments; however, scientific facts and secular history prove both of my points and show Protestants, with Sola Sciptura as a basis for their belief, is using the incorrect Bible. Your theology is based upon a personal belief proven wrong by facts. If you wish I can provide sources for all of my comments.
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  #36  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:20 am
StMarina303ad StMarina303ad is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcoPolo View Post
p.s. there is no "official English version" of the Catholic Bible.

p.s.s. in this paragraph you start by saying the Church "removed" certain books, but then proceed to argue that they just re-named or re-ordered them. Which is it? Perhaps if you provided a link to your source it might clear things up.
I did include the link to the Roman Catholic Church's Vatican Website: www.vatican.va
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  #37  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:21 am
StMarina303ad StMarina303ad is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
The Catholic Church assembled the Bible in the late third century. Prior to that there was no bible. There were scriptures but no bible. The Catholic Church decided, based on their knowledge of the faith and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which Christ promised would guide His Church in all truths, which scripture was to be included in the bible and which scripture was not. They decided, for example, that the Gospel of Mark (even though Mark was not an actual Apostle but a disciple of Peter) SHOULD be included but the Gospel of Thomas should NOT be included. The same applies to the books that you made reference to.

When they were done, they had produced the bible -- version 1.0 and to this day, it remains version 1.0 ... the Catholic Church has not added or subtracted anything from it's pages.

The Septuagint was already complied prior to Christ. Man have you missed it HUGE on this one!
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  #38  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:28 am
Sir Knight Sir Knight is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StMarina303ad View Post
You seem to miss the fact that it they were in the Bible before the Church was established by Jesus. So yes, the Orthodox has maintained all the books and the Catholics and Protestants have removed some of them.
Actually, you seem to have missed the fact that there was no bible prior to the Church established by Christ taking on the task of assembling it. As I pointed out earlier, how can you remove something from something that doesn't exist yet?
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  #39  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:30 am
ALotLessThumb ALotLessThumb is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

The problem is your question misses the point. The problem Catholics have with Protestants removing the books has to do primarily with the position of the Bible in Christendom and not the actual removal of the books.

Usually, when a Catholic raises the issue of the removal of the Deutrocannonicals, the discussion centers around how one could determine the infallibility of a holy book without some sort of infallible body to make that very determination. I don't think it's too much of a generalization to say that the Protestants this argument is really aimed towards are those of the "KJV-only" crowd, who view the Bible in a way analogous to how Muslims view the Qu'ran.

When it comes to the Orthodox and the Catholic Church- I don't see how one church having less books than the others is that much of a problem. If some disaster happened, and a whole group of people were only left with only, say: Exodus, 1 John, and Matthew- as long as there were bishops and other teachers of the faith, the faith could arguably be passed on with little problem. This is because those bishops would have learned from those who appointed them, and they could confirm the validility of those "remaining books" (in this scenario.) So they could be seen as trustworthy...and that's the problem with the removal of books, there is no one to say that the ones kept by Protestants are trustworthy.
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  #40  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:31 am
StMarina303ad StMarina303ad is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Knight View Post
Sorry, I was in a car accident yesterday and had to stay in bed for most of the day. Doctor's orders. Had very little computer time but have a bit more today. By next week, I'll be back to my regular posting self.



As I pointed out above, the bible did not exist prior to the late third century. Nothing was removed from it's pages AFTER it was produced. And how can you accuse anyone of removing something from it before it was produced when it didn't even exist before it was produced? You can removed something from something that doesn't exist.

I certainly wish you a speedy recovery. I will pray for you and light a candle for you tomorrow at Evening Prayers at Church.

You claim that the Bible did not exist until the 3rd Century AD; however, the Septuagint (Old Testament) was compiled in it's entirety in the 3rd Century BC. Jesus used it and quoted from it as we can see in Scriptures which have been included in the New Testament. I believe what is confusing you is that there were NO New Testament Scriptures yet complied into one volume with the Septuagint. The New Testament began being written and past around from Church to Church starting around the end of the 1st Century AD, but was not yet added to the Septuagint to be called as we know it now as the Bible.
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  #41  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:33 am
RobHom RobHom is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StMarina303ad View Post
So here we have again Catholics accusing Protestants of removing books of the Old Testament...WHY DID THE ROMAN CATHOLICS ALSO REMOVE BOOKS FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT (Septuagint)?
I'm not a "Bible Technician" by any means...however, the reality on one side is that "Protestant removal of books"....began some time ago....and while Luther did not throw out the Apocryphal books, he wanted to, and also wanted to throw out James as I understand it. He did not consider them "inspired". They stayed though, and even the Apocryphal books were included in the original King James Version. King James required it to be so.

The DR New Testament was first published by the English College at Rheims in 1582 A.D. The DR Old Testament was first published by the English College at Douay in 1609 A.D. The first King James Version was not published until 1611. This online DRV contains all 73 books, including the seven Deutero-Canonical books (erroneously called Apocrypha by Protestants). These seven books were included in the 1611 KJV, but not in later KJV Bibles.

It was later on that "others" than the Catholic Church that being later "reformers" removed the Apocryphal books. They do not appear in many "protestant" Bibles. Additionally, it is my understanding that insofar as the "protestant" Bibles are concerned, they in reality have a slightly different version of the "Old Testament":

It is interesting to note that the Palestinian Jews did not accept the 7 DC books for their version of Holy Scriptures and neither did they accept any of the New Testament. Unfortunately, the Protestants base their Bible on this version which comes from a people who did not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. http://drbo.org/intro.htm

So far as the authenticity of the Catholic Bible, this is what I know:

Pope Damasus assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Roman Council in 382 A.D. He commissioned St. Jerome to translate the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin, which became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official version, in 1546.

All of the information in bold came from here: http://drbo.org/intro.htm

Quote:
I'll keep reading responses. Hopefully, someone will actually give an answer.
Possibly reading some of the rest of the information on that site, you will find the answer you seek. I personally am not aware of any items that the Catholic Church removed from the Bible. I know that there were books that were determined to not be inspired and were even considered "gnostic" in nature and a few others that were considered "forgeries"..... I once read a book a few years ago....titled something like "The 13 Books left out of the Bible". And from what I could gather.....from my non-technical layman's point of view...they were left out for a reason.

Peace!!
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  #42  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:35 am
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

http://st-takla.org/pub_Deuterocanon...zmoor-151.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_151#Composition


part of the Pseudographia? Dead Sea Scrolls?

http://books.google.com/books?id=1u_...um=6&ct=result
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  #43  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:46 am
RobHom RobHom is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

StMarina303AD.... Help me here....you are alleging that the Catholic Church has "removed" inspired scriptures from the Bible. OK, beyond the fact that two different versions of the OT existed prior to Christ's time on earth....they were not the "Canon" of the Christian Bible, Catholic or otherwise. Were they not the Holy Books of the Jews?

Insofar as the New Testament, which did not exist prior to Christ's time, and most having been written post-Resurrection, I know of nothing that has been changed deleted or modified other than translations...

Is it not possible that, as opposed to the Greek Orthodox Church "adding" anything, is it not possible that at some point in time a different Canon was adopted?

Is there a link to the Greek Orthodox Bible?
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  #44  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:52 am
PerryJ PerryJ is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by StMarina303ad View Post
I certainly wish you a speedy recovery. I will pray for you and light a candle for you tomorrow at Evening Prayers at Church.

You claim that the Bible did not exist until the 3rd Century AD; however, the Septuagint (Old Testament) was compiled in it's entirety in the 3rd Century BC. Jesus used it and quoted from it as we can see in Scriptures which have been included in the New Testament. I believe what is confusing you is that there were NO New Testament Scriptures yet complied into one volume with the Septuagint. The New Testament began being written and past around from Church to Church starting around the end of the 1st Century AD, but was not yet added to the Septuagint to be called as we know it now as the Bible.
Can you give us a source for your information.

Please give me the codex you are referring to in the third century bc that included all of these texts.

Who compiled this codex you are referring to?
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  #45  
Old Aug 19, '08, 10:53 am
StMarina303ad StMarina303ad is offline
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Default Re: We always see Catholics accusing Protestants of removing 7 books from the Old Testament, but I've never heard a Catholic answer why did Roman Catholics remove books from the Old Testament: Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by PerryJ View Post
Please answer my question. If they should be in the Bible did your faith add them back? If not why not?

I will research this area; however, I find your statement has no basis. The DCs were removed because of Luther's personal fears and his losing a debate to Eck. Nothing more. The Dead Sea Scrolls have proven that the Protestant claim concerning the DC is totally unfounded. One can argue all they want and make up new arguments; however, scientific facts and secular history prove both of my points and show Protestants, with Sola Sciptura as a basis for their belief, is using the incorrect Bible. Your theology is based upon a personal belief proven wrong by facts. If you wish I can provide sources for all of my comments.
Perry, I somehow get the impression that you think I am a Protesant Christian (a baby of the Roman Catholic Church). I am not. I am an Orthodox Church whose roots are traced back to the Apostles: Peter (founded the Church in Antioch), Andrew (founded the Church in Byzantium/Constantinople), Mark (founded the Church in Alexandria), etc. Our Church (and our Bible & Liturgy) has not changed in the last 2 thousand years. We have, in Greek (the original language of the Church and the Bible), maintained the Septuagint in it's entirety which is now called the Old Testament.

You are absolutely correct that after the Roman Catholic Church removed 2 books of the O.T. and Psalm 151 in the 1500's the first of 30,000+ Protestant Churches was born and Martin Luther did remove additional books.

Everyone here on Catholic Answers should have a clear idea as to why Martin Luther did what he did by now; however, the question remains: Why did the Roman Catholic Church remove books from the Septuagint? The Septuagint, the version of the Old Testament that had been for hundreds of years before Christ and used and quoted by Christ Himself.
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