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  #1  
Old Sep 5, '08, 5:25 pm
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Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
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Default Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

I got this information from a Lutheran website. I want to know from Lutherans if they believe this as true statement of faith:


The source is http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=579

Quote:
Of the Antichrist

(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)
[Adopted 1932]

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)
If this statement is true, then they really got the themselves in a very bad situation because we know that the Pope is not the Anti-Christ.

For one the Pope like every devout Catholic recites the Nicene Creed. The Anti-Christ deny Jesus as the Son of God, and the Messiah.

This hardly fits the Pope himself.

I
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"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #2  
Old Sep 5, '08, 5:31 pm
TriuneUnity TriuneUnity is offline
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
I got this information from a Lutheran website. I want to know from Lutherans if they believe this as true statement of faith:


The source is http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=579



If this statement is true, then they really got the themselves in a very bad situation because we know that the Pope is not the Anti-Christ.

For one the Pope like every devout Catholic recites the Nicene Creed. The Anti-Christ deny Jesus as the Son of God, and the Messiah.

This hardly fits the Pope himself.

I
It would refer to the passages in 2 Thessalonians and not the passages which refer to denying Jesus in the flesh.

It is affirmed by most of the conservative Lutheran church bodies. Individual Lutherans may differ on it, I believe.
  #3  
Old Sep 5, '08, 5:33 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity View Post
It would refer to the passages in 2 Thessalonians and not the passages which refer to denying Jesus in the flesh.

It is affirmed by most of the conservative Lutheran church bodies. Individual Lutherans may differ on it, I believe.
I find it disturbing because this doctrine is misleading Non-Catholic Christians and give them a false misconceptions about the Pope.
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"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #4  
Old Sep 5, '08, 5:38 pm
TriuneUnity TriuneUnity is offline
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
I find it disturbing because this doctrine is misleading Non-Catholic Christians and give them a false misconceptions about the Pope.
If you view it as false, yes. One must remember that the article doesn't condemn the individual Pope holding the Office, rather, the Office itself.
  #5  
Old Sep 5, '08, 5:54 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

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Originally Posted by TriuneUnity View Post
If you view it as false, yes. One must remember that the article doesn't condemn the individual Pope holding the Office, rather, the Office itself.
The Office itself does not deny Christ. It only affirms what the Church has already believe. The statement still remains false and it is completely erroneous from a Catholic standpoint.

The office of Papacy is the Chair of Peter. When the Pope exercises the matters concerning faith and moral in union with the bishops of the entire Church, it is preserved from teaching error.

I have also read the Bible time and time again, and the office of the Papacy is very Biblical.
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"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #6  
Old Sep 5, '08, 5:59 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

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Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
The Office itself does not deny Christ. It only affirms what the Church has already believe. The statement still remains false and it is completely erroneous from a Catholic standpoint.
It's not in reference to denying Jesus in the flesh. The teachings from 2 Thessalonians to which our confession refers is not regarding that subject.
  #7  
Old Sep 5, '08, 6:09 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity View Post
It's not in reference to denying Jesus in the flesh. The teachings from 2 Thessalonians to which our confession refers is not regarding that subject.
The passage in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2:3-12 states:

Quote:
Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god-- do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved. Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.
This passage is use to justify that the Pope is the lawless one aka the Anti-Christ.

The statement of faith by Lutheran on the website declares the Pope as the deceiver.

Throughout my study of the Papacy, the Pope does not fit the individual in 2 Thess.
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Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #8  
Old Sep 5, '08, 6:11 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
The passage in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2:3-12 states:



This passage is use to justify that the Pope is the lawless one aka the Anti-Christ.

The statement of faith by Lutheran on the website declares the Pope as the deceiver.

Throughout my study of the Papacy, the Pope does not fit the individual in 2 Thess.
Well, of course not, otherwise, I would hope, you wouldn't be Catholic!
  #9  
Old Sep 5, '08, 6:19 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity View Post
Well, of course not, otherwise, I would hope, you wouldn't be Catholic!
Do you believe that the office of the Papacy is the Anti-Christ?
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Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #10  
Old Sep 5, '08, 6:20 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
Do you believe that the office of the Papacy is the Anti-Christ?
Yes.
  #11  
Old Sep 5, '08, 6:23 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity View Post
Yes.
Wow that is really bad and Un-Biblical.
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Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #12  
Old Sep 5, '08, 6:35 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
Do you believe that the office of the Papacy is the Anti-Christ?
Triune Unity and I agree on the substance of our disagreements with Rome, but disagree about the use of the term antichrist. I believe the use of this term in the confessions is a 500 year old polemic that is misunderstood in light of modern Christian charity and some of the (false) end times philosophies of today.
I think our belief can be better described using terms that, in and of themselves, do not create hostility and misunderstanding.

I do not believe that Pope Benedict XVI is the antichirst. In fact, I believe he is a Chrstian of great faith. I believe JP II was perhaps the finest Christian leader of my lifetime. I do not believe that the antichrist will arise out of Rome as some beast. I do believe that there are (some) errors in the teachings of the papacy, including its view of its own authority. To the extent that some of these errors are in opposition to Christ's teachings, the errors are anti christ.

Jon
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“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
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Old Sep 5, '08, 6:47 pm
Pinkyyy Pinkyyy is offline
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

You know, sometimes I am offended by titles on here (and it only seems to be on the non-catholic group here). Why don't I just say, "why do ALL you catholics think only catholics are going to Heaven?" Obviously not all catholics believe this, so why do you ask if ALL Lutherans believe that? You know the answer already, right? I don't believe this is a sincere question - just another finger pointing at the Luteran religion and quite frankly this finger pointing and attitude keeps me from wanting to leave Lutheranism and come to the church (now, I'm not saying other religions don't sometimes do the same thing to catholics).

As for your answer, no not too many Lutherans would call the Pope the anti-christ. In fact, I would go even further and say that Luterans are some of the least likely Protestants to say this. On the other hand, this is not the first time I've hear this theory - and not from Lutherans but from all kinds of backgrounds (yes, even Catholic). I don't buy it - but this isn't really a "new" thing that's being said.
  #14  
Old Sep 5, '08, 6:52 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
Wow that is really bad and Un-Biblical.

You would have to debate that on the merits of the claim. To reiterate what Jon said, I do not see the Pope as an apocalyptic end times figure as portrayed in, say, the Left-Behind series. Nor would I say Pope Benedict XVI is the Anti-Christ. The papacy is the Anti-Christ and fits the biblical model of 2 Thessalonians.
  #15  
Old Sep 5, '08, 6:57 pm
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Default Re: Do all Lutherans view the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

I do not know what the "anti-Christ" means, but I can say that Lutherans are not millenialists or dispensationalists.
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