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  #1  
Old Oct 8, '08, 2:37 am
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Is the Old Testament still important today?

Christ has come, he taught the Jews, trained the disciples, was crucified and rose on the third day, first day of the week establishing his church and commanding the Apostles to go forth to all the nations. All this in fulfillment of Old Testament Prohpecies. In doing all of this he made it unnecessary the sacrifical ceremonies that were a picture of him.

Knowing this, is the Old Testament of any import for us today? What use is it? Can we ignore it and just rely on New Testament writings and Traditions past down through the centuries? Is there any Authority in the Old Testament and if yes, what would that be?

This thread in now open for discussion. Please keep your responses civil and non judgmental.
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  #2  
Old Oct 8, '08, 2:43 am
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Dempsey1919 Dempsey1919 is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

The New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament; and the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament.

The Old Testament is extremely important because it recounts the history of salvation. Christ did not abolish the Law; he fulfilled it. The Old Testament remains true to this very day, but we read it in light of the saving mission of Christ. The Old and New Testaments are both one and the same Word and must be treated as such.
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  #3  
Old Oct 8, '08, 3:24 am
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1919 View Post
The New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament; and the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament.

The Old Testament is extremely important because it recounts the history of salvation. Christ did not abolish the Law; he fulfilled it. The Old Testament remains true to this very day, but we read it in light of the saving mission of Christ. The Old and New Testaments are both one and the same Word and must be treated as such.
So why is it that so much of the Old Testament is ignored by so many, especially when we know what you just posted is in essence the truth regarding the Law and Christ.
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  #4  
Old Oct 8, '08, 4:16 am
Lev23 Lev23 is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
Christ has come, he taught the Jews, trained the disciples, was crucified and rose on the third day, first day of the week establishing his church and commanding the Apostles to go forth to all the nations. All this in fulfillment of Old Testament Prohpecies. In doing all of this he made it unnecessary the sacrifical ceremonies that were a picture of him.

Knowing this, is the Old Testament of any import for us today? What use is it?
All the NT writers quote OT scripture, quote that Jesus taught OT scripture, and his disciples used the OT scriptures to witness Jesus Christ as Messiah to Jews. You just simply cannot sweep the OT under the rug.

And not all prophecies are fulfilled. Luke wrote both Luke and Acts to prove this point at the simplest level.

Luke 24:44-45
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Acts 1:6-7
So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.


Israel will be fully restored when Jesus comes back to Israel a 2nd time. The OT is full of prophecies concerning such.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
Can we ignore it and just rely on New Testament writings and Traditions past down through the centuries?
No way. No how. In the New Testamnet, the Gospel is to the Jew first. So how do you figure then you can cut out the scriptures they use, which is the OT?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
Is there any Authority in the Old Testament and if yes, what would that be?
That authority would be Jesus Christ, see Luke 24:44:45.

Also note that St.Peter wrote in his epistle about the transfiguaration of Jesus, what he called "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". He then adds this to his account-
2 Peter 1:16-21
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


Did you catch that?-" And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it,........


Yes, The Old Testament is extremely important today.
  #5  
Old Oct 8, '08, 4:28 am
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lev23 View Post
All the NT writers quote OT scripture, quote that Jesus taught OT scripture, and his disciples used the OT scriptures to witness Jesus Christ as Messiah to Jews. You just simply cannot sweep the OT under the rug.

And not all prophecies are fulfilled. Luke wrote both Luke and Acts to prove this point at the simplest level.

Luke 24:44-45
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Acts 1:6-7
So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.


Israel will be fully restored when Jesus comes back to Israel a 2nd time. The OT is full of prophecies concerning such.




No way. No how. In the New Testamnet, the Gospel is to the Jew first. So how do you figure then you can cut out the scriptures they use, which is the OT?






That authority would be Jesus Christ, see Luke 24:44:45.

Also note that St.Peter wrote in his epistle about the transfiguaration of Jesus, what he called " the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". He then adds this to his account-
1 Peter 1:16-21
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


Did you catch that?-" And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it,........


Yes, The Old Testament is extremely important today.
See the quote in red? You seem to think just because I asked the question I doubt the validity of the Old Testament. Let me assure you I do not. There is a reason I asked the question, and most assuredly you are answering it. The question was designed for everyone to think about their position concerning the Old Testament, Christ and the Law.

Look up and read again what was stated concering the Law of Moses. Yet, many would throw the Law away because they think and teach that Christ has done away with it, if not all of it at least parts of it. He did not, nor will they every be. The Moral Law stands fast. Again, don't thing that I doubt the validity of the Old Testament. If you had thuroughly read my introductory post to this thread you would have realized the question was just to get a dialogue going.

Please continue in all humbleness.
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  #6  
Old Oct 8, '08, 5:03 am
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Dempsey1919 Dempsey1919 is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

The Law was given so that Israel could attain righteousness. Those under the Law knew that they would please the Lord by keeping the Commandments.

Christ was the living embodiment of the righteousness that was attained by keeping the Commandments of God. Christ was perfectly holy and righteous; the Law was given so that men could become like Christ. Christ was the ideal behind the Law; the entire purpose of the Law was to enable men to reach the perfection that was Christ's from the very beginning.

During his earthly life, Christ showed men how to live. He revealed, through his deeds and words, the behaviour which truly pleased the Lord. Jesus, by his complete fidelity to the Law, showed the reasons for the Law. By his life, death and ressurection, Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly.

Since the Incarnation, men attain righteousness through the complete fidelity to the person of Christ. By following his example and teachings, we automatically fulfill the Law. However, Christ not only lived by the Law; he also revealed the principals behind the Law. Christians now follow those principals upon which the entire Law was based. Christians are no longer bound by the particular rules which make up the Law because we now become holy by imitating Christ. Furthermore, the Gospel reveals the Law in it's purest form.

Therefore, the Law is still important because it reveals Christ but Christ is even more important because he completes the Law and reveals the principals upon which the entire Law was based.
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  #7  
Old Oct 8, '08, 5:27 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Do not forget that the Apostles, led by the Holy Spirit, at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts ruled that Gentile Christians did not have to hold to the dietary or other laws. There were just a handfull of things, including not drinking blood or eating strangled animals. When Jesus was Crucified and rose again, it ended the need for any animal sacrifices. This also negated the Temple laws. The purity and cleansing laws were dealt with when Jesus taught that it is not what is on the outside that makes us impure but what it on the inside. The Sabbath as a forced rest was also altered by Jesus when he challenged the HUGE list of things that we could and could not do on our day of "rest"

Basically, that leaves the Ten Commandments. The early Church, again lead by the Holy Spirit, moved the day of worship to Sunday, to hold to the day of the Resurection. Jesus expaned the Ten to include thought as well as deeds.
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  #8  
Old Oct 8, '08, 5:58 am
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1919 View Post
The Law was given so that Israel could attain righteousness. Those under the Law knew that they would please the Lord by keeping the Commandments.

Christ was the living embodiment of the righteousness that was attained by keeping the Commandments of God. Christ was perfectly holy and righteous; the Law was given so that men could become like Christ. Christ was the ideal behind the Law; the entire purpose of the Law was to enable men to reach the perfection that was Christ's from the very beginning.

During his earthly life, Christ showed men how to live. He revealed, through his deeds and words, the behaviour which truly pleased the Lord. Jesus, by his complete fidelity to the Law, showed the reasons for the Law. By his life, death and ressurection, Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly.

Since the Incarnation, men attain righteousness through the complete fidelity to the person of Christ. By following his example and teachings, we automatically fulfill the Law. However, Christ not only lived by the Law; he also revealed the principals behind the Law. Christians now follow those principals upon which the entire Law was based. Christians are no longer bound by the particular rules which make up the Law because we now become holy by imitating Christ. Furthermore, the Gospel reveals the Law in it's purest form.

Therefore, the Law is still important because it reveals Christ but Christ is even more important because he completes the Law and reveals the principals upon which the entire Law was based.
Nor can the Law be separated from Christ nor Christ from the Law. The Law still exists it is only from the comdemnantion of the Law that by Grace are we saved.
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  #9  
Old Oct 8, '08, 6:00 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
Nor can the Law be separated from Christ nor Christ from the Law. The Law still exists it is only from the comdemnantion of the Law that by Grace are we saved.
If the Law still exists, are we to offer animal sacrifices? Ritually wash and clean? Can we touch dead animals? Drive on the Sabboth? Keep kosher?
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  #10  
Old Oct 8, '08, 6:01 am
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphinal View Post
Do not forget that the Apostles, led by the Holy Spirit, at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts ruled that Gentile Christians did not have to hold to the dietary or other laws. There were just a handfull of things, including not drinking blood or eating strangled animals. When Jesus was Crucified and rose again, it ended the need for any animal sacrifices. This also negated the Temple laws. The purity and cleansing laws were dealt with when Jesus taught that it is not what is on the outside that makes us impure but what it on the inside. The Sabbath as a forced rest was also altered by Jesus when he challenged the HUGE list of things that we could and could not do on our day of "rest"
I ask that you research the prophecies and find out specifically who will and who will not be entering into the Kingdom at the end. The are specific lists as to the types of people/believers that God permits into heaven when all is said and done. And remember also, God does not change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphinal View Post

Basically, that leaves the Ten Commandments. The early Church, again lead by the Holy Spirit, moved the day of worship to Sunday, to hold to the day of the Resurection. Jesus expaned the Ten to include thought as well as deeds.
There is more to your statement than you realize. Unfortunately you don't see it.
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  #11  
Old Oct 8, '08, 6:08 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
I ask that you research the prophecies and find out specifically who will and who will not be entering into the Kingdom at the end. The are specific lists as to the types of people/believers that God permits into heaven when all is said and done. And remember also, God does not change.
Is it different than the list that Jesus gave us?

Quote:
There is more to your statement than you realize. Unfortunately you don't see it.
Why don't you help me?
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  #12  
Old Oct 8, '08, 6:40 am
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Dempsey1919 Dempsey1919 is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
If the Law still exists, are we to offer animal sacrifices? Ritually wash and clean? Can we touch dead animals? Drive on the Sabboth? Keep kosher?
The Law still exists but we are no longer bound by it. Christ fulfilled the Law and exhorted us to follow his example. The goals of the Law were accomplished by Christ, and those who follow his way become the kind of people that the Law was established to create.
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  #13  
Old Oct 8, '08, 8:37 am
reen12 reen12 is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

From a wholly other perspective, vis a vis the Hebrew Scriptures:

St. Paul thought that the Law had a propaedeutic function.
[propaedeutic = preparatory, in nature]. He stressed that it was clear
that no one could perfectly fulfill the Law.
[As if no one understood this - before Paul.]

Once think in relational terms, [not legalistically - as did Paul]
no human father expects his children to be perfect.
Neither does God.

Paul was in error, in terms of the place of Torah.
The Law provides the way that His chosen people
may demonstrate their love of HaShem.

The dominant thought, in Judaism, holds that men and women
are born into this world in innocence - not at all 'inheriting' the sin of Adam.
[ontological sin - sin in one's very being -----> 'original' sin.]
In fact, attention is turned to making the world a
better place than one found it, before returning to God.

Abstract speculation - about God - and the things of God,
hold little interest. Many things are left undefined.
As a child trusts his/her father, one may trust in God - that He
knows the 'definitions' -----.of salvation, the world to come, and all else.
One rests in- and is cheered by - His enduring love. [hesed.]

Comforted by God, one trusts Him -
and turns attention to the world that God has made.

Not at all a matter of - "How have I sinned? Let me count the ways."

I think that Paul [Saul of Tarsus] had his own 'issues' with the Law,
and projected his own issues - as he 'described' same.



reen12
  #14  
Old Oct 8, '08, 8:43 am
dougfreed dougfreed is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

I think Old Testament is for history of why we needed Christ. Do we need to follow the laws of OT? I believe we only need to observe the 10 Commandments seeing how that's all Jesus spoke of in the talks he gave in the New Testament. If we are truly Disciples of Christ as we should be, we are following his teachings and doing our best everyday.
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Old Oct 9, '08, 12:44 am
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: Is the Old Testament still important today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougfreed View Post
I think Old Testament is for history of why we needed Christ. Do we need to follow the laws of OT? I believe we only need to observe the 10 Commandments seeing how that's all Jesus spoke of in the talks he gave in the New Testament. If we are truly Disciples of Christ as we should be, we are following his teachings and doing our best everyday.
Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself. But may I add that it is not out of Fear, legalism, or anyother reason than that of LOVE for God that we do so.
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