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  #16  
Old Oct 13, '08, 5:50 pm
pepin1980 pepin1980 is offline
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

There is not one single scientific proof that gay people are 'born that way'. However, it is a widespread assumption constantly proclaimed by the media as the 'truth'. I did try to find and read some info about this, and there has been some research.
I read one research that was trying to prove that gay people have a different brain. However, they used both healthy and sick gay men (who died from natural causes or from AIDS), and they could not prove if the changes in the brain were due to being gay or were caused by AIDS.
There have been other attempts, e.g. one research proved that people who tend to behave like members of the opposite sex as children (e.g., girls who behave like boys, or boys who behave like girls), are more prone to becoming gay as adults. However, nobody tried to find the reasons, WHY did they behave like this when they were children - family problems, how they were raised, if they suffered any physical, psychological or sexual trauma, etc.
Personally for me, 'researches' like these are tainted, as they are deliberately trying to find something that has been there all the time, and NEVER try to see if there has been something acquired during one's life experiences. There is a lot of research being done in this area, the modern idea is to find some 'scientific' reason to hide behind, and NOBODY has been able to prove that gay people are 'born that way'.
I personally know three people who are gay, and I have some personal experience with all three of them, growing together with two of them. In all three cases, those were the younger of two children in atheist families, where having more that two children was considered wrong. So, instead of having a lot of children, the mothers decided to do and give everything to their boys, knowing they would be their last kids. All three of them were spoiled rotten - ALWAYS given everything they always wanted, never denied a thing, nobody taught them to think about others. They all learned that they can do anything they want, and there would be NO consequences. E.g., in one case, the boy would mistreat others, call them 'mule', etc., and then his mother would always protect him, telling the people complaining that they are wrong, arguing with them, even shouting that her 'perfect little son' would never do something like that, etc.
I know my experience is VERY limited, however, it does show that not raising your child right does have consequences. As far as I know, however, nobody is interested in making a research in that area, to see if there is a connection...
  #17  
Old Oct 13, '08, 5:52 pm
coleraine coleraine is offline
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
Yes, we do both know the truth here. However, my best friend who believes otherwise does not. That is why I am asking questions in this way. I am asking them as if I were him. That way I can get answers as to how to refute his erroneous beliefs.
find out if he has a christian belief system. if he does, ask him about the verse in corinthians were homosexuality is condemned.
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  #18  
Old Oct 13, '08, 5:54 pm
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepin1980 View Post
There is not one single scientific proof that gay people are 'born that way'. However, it is a widespread assumption constantly proclaimed by the media as the 'truth'. I did try to find and read some info about this, and there has been some research.
I read one research that was trying to prove that gay people have a different brain. However, they used both healthy and sick gay men (who died from natural causes or from AIDS), and they could not prove if the changes in the brain were due to being gay or were caused by AIDS.
There have been other attempts, e.g. one research proved that people who tend to behave like members of the opposite sex as children (e.g., girls who behave like boys, or boys who behave like girls), are more prone to becoming gay as adults. However, nobody tried to find the reasons, WHY did they behave like this when they were children - family problems, how they were raised, if they suffered any physical, psychological or sexual trauma, etc.
Personally for me, 'researches' like these are tainted, as they are deliberately trying to find something that has been there all the time, and NEVER try to see if there has been something acquired during one's life experiences. There is a lot of research being done in this area, the modern idea is to find some 'scientific' reason to hide behind, and NOBODY has been able to prove that gay people are 'born that way'.
I personally know three people who are gay, and I have some personal experience with all three of them, growing together with two of them. In all three cases, those were the younger of two children in atheist families, where having more that two children was considered wrong. So, instead of having a lot of children, the mothers decided to do and give everything to their boys, knowing they would be their last kids. All three of them were spoiled rotten - ALWAYS given everything they always wanted, never denied a thing, nobody taught them to think about others. They all learned that they can do anything they want, and there would be NO consequences. E.g., in one case, the boy would mistreat others, call them 'mule', etc., and then his mother would always protect him, telling the people complaining that they are wrong, arguing with them, even shouting that her 'perfect little son' would never do something like that, etc.
I know my experience is VERY limited, however, it does show that not raising your child right does have consequences. As far as I know, however, nobody is interested in making a research in that area, to see if there is a connection...
Hmmm, thank you for this information. It is quite helpful.
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  #19  
Old Oct 13, '08, 5:58 pm
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

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Originally Posted by coleraine View Post
find out if he has a christian belief system. if he does, ask him about the verse in corinthians were homosexuality is condemned.
My friend is an Agnostic Theist. I do believe he believes the Christian belief system more than he does the other belief systems that are out there but he has a hard time believing and understanding the Bible.
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--St. Josemaria Escriva

“One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, Our Lady will save the world.”
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"Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world."
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  #20  
Old Oct 13, '08, 6:01 pm
coleraine coleraine is offline
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

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Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
My friend is an Agnostic Theist. I do believe he believes the Christian belief system more than he does the other belief systems that are out there but he has a hard time believing and understanding the Bible.
well...for your friend my advice would not work. in this case, i would just go with the above advice.
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  #21  
Old Oct 13, '08, 6:02 pm
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

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Originally Posted by coleraine View Post
well...for your friend my advice would not work. in this case, i would just go with the above advice.
Yes, that is what I am going to do. But thanks anyway for trying to help.
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." -- Saint Augustine of Hippo

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--St. Josemaria Escriva

“One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, Our Lady will save the world.”
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"Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world."
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  #22  
Old Oct 13, '08, 6:46 pm
sanctamaria17 sanctamaria17 is offline
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

My answer:

We're all called to be chaste. That means no sex until marriage and afterward, a proper order to sexuality. God calls us ALL to live like that.

HOWEVER, I don't believe that a secular federal government has any business telling CONSENTING ADULTS what they can and cannot do in the bedroom. That goes for premarital sex, homosexual marriage, etc. That's not part of the government's job. That's the Church's job. The government was designed to protect our freedom and make sure we don't kill each other (physically, not spiritually, as it's supposed to be outside of the spiritual realm).

As for the born that way, I don't know if it's naturally hardwired or what, but from my perspective, I did not choose my sexuality. I choose how I act on it (staying chaste), but I didn't choose it.

And no, people are not natural born murderers, they choose to murder. They may have violent tendencies but they choose to act negatively on them. Also, many in the gay community will agree that pedophilia and bestiality are evil abuse to innocent children and animals and stick with CONSENTING ADULTS who just don't consider gender an important quality when falling in love (while I know God made us otherwise, many are NOT Catholic or Christian, so it's a bit different). I don't condone their lifestyle, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that they're going to fight for legal pedophilia as well.

I can imagine your gay friend would be highly offended by a possible homosexuality/pedophilia comparison. As a chaste queer, I'd take offense to that! I'm no more likely to abuse children than someone who is straight! That's sick and wrong! Just because our sexualities are a bit out of the realm (and I don't intend to act on my impulses) doesn't mean we're out to get innocent little kids! I'm sorry, but OUCH!

Seriously, outside of life issues (which should be protected), the more we try to legislate Christianity, the more we prostitute our religion and have our intentions blow up in our faces because our religion was never meant to be a political one.
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  #23  
Old Oct 13, '08, 6:51 pm
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanctamaria17 View Post
My answer:

We're all called to be chaste. That means no sex until marriage and afterward, a proper order to sexuality. God calls us ALL to live like that.

HOWEVER, I don't believe that a secular federal government has any business telling CONSENTING ADULTS what they can and cannot do in the bedroom. That goes for premarital sex, homosexual marriage, etc. That's not part of the government's job. That's the Church's job. The government was designed to protect our freedom and make sure we don't kill each other (physically, not spiritually, as it's supposed to be outside of the spiritual realm).

As for the born that way, I don't know if it's naturally hardwired or what, but from my perspective, I did not choose my sexuality. I choose how I act on it (staying chaste), but I didn't choose it.

And no, people are not natural born murderers, they choose to murder. They may have violent tendencies but they choose to act negatively on them. Also, many in the gay community will agree that pedophilia and bestiality are evil abuse to innocent children and animals and stick with CONSENTING ADULTS who just don't consider gender an important quality when falling in love (while I know God made us otherwise, many are NOT Catholic or Christian, so it's a bit different). I don't condone their lifestyle, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that they're going to fight for legal pedophilia as well.

I can imagine your gay friend would be highly offended by a possible homosexuality/pedophilia comparison. As a chaste queer, I'd take offense to that! I'm no more likely to abuse children than someone who is straight! That's sick and wrong! Just because our sexualities are a bit out of the realm (and I don't intend to act on my impulses) doesn't mean we're out to get innocent little kids! I'm sorry, but OUCH!

Seriously, outside of life issues (which should be protected), the more we try to legislate Christianity, the more we prostitute our religion and have our intentions blow up in our faces because our religion was never meant to be a political one.
Actually, my friend is not gay. He believes that gay marriage is OK because he is a liberal and because he has gay friends whom he cares for deeply.

But anyway, thank you for this post which I fully agree with.
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." -- Saint Augustine of Hippo

"The holy Rosary is a powerful weapon. Use it with confidence and you'll be amazed at the results."
--St. Josemaria Escriva

“One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, Our Lady will save the world.”
--Saint Dominic

"Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world."
--Blessed Pope Pius IX


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  #24  
Old Oct 13, '08, 7:24 pm
AndyF AndyF is offline
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

In order to accept your statement, you would first need to accept that God likes to play tricks on people, and he doesn't take seriously his own definitions of the Sacrament of Marriage.

a/ God stated it plainly that HS is an abomination.

This is a heads up. If it does not fully drive home that the behavior is repugnant to God, we are at least lead further to view this conduct has suspicious. If has a child you saw that your father avoided venturing near cliffs you may be too young to know why, but you has a wise child would know a danger of some form exists.

b/ God stated that a marriage between male and female is the
sanctioned norm. We also know that the devil's intent is to offer alternatives to God's wishes. Wisdom then concludes from this Divine knowledge that there is something wrong with the HS ritual. You will note I don't say marriage, because it can never be one, and is really a cult ritual that the devil presides over.

HS is a class of sin. It expresses itself strongly in deception and it's main focal point is to convince the afflicted that he is unchangeable. It is accompanied by altered senses and stimulus that suggest that his physiology isn't what he is born with. It is a very devious and subtle sin, one of the toughest temptations that man must endure.

It has it's start so that it does not startle the victim. It exploits the degree of deficiency in lack of grace that this particular individual possess. It entices the experimental inclination and intrigue he is susceptible to, and when he consents, uses this
new platform has a staging ground for further temptation to experimentation.

While this progresses in a downward spiral, his ability to trust blindly must not be compromised, has he will require at the final stage of giving in entirely a small window of hope. Through it he will receive from his brethren the suggestions that will start the remedial processes, mainly a plea from the Blessed Mother through devotion, help from St. Michael, and observances of Church obligations, and most importantly frequent confession.

AndyF
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  #25  
Old Oct 13, '08, 7:26 pm
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyF View Post
In order to accept your statement, you would first need to accept that God likes to play tricks on people, and he doesn't take seriously his own definitions of the Sacrament of Marriage.

a/ God stated it plainly that HS is an abomination.

This is a heads up. If it does not fully drive home that the behavior is repugnant to God, we are at least lead further to view this conduct has suspicious. If has a child you saw that your father avoided venturing near cliffs you may be too young to know why, but you has a wise child would know a danger of some form exists.

b/ God stated that a marriage between male and female is the
sanctioned norm. We also know that the devil's intent is to offer alternatives to God's wishes. Wisdom then concludes from this Divine knowledge that there is something wrong with the HS ritual. You will note I don't say marriage, because it can never be one, and is really a cult ritual that the devil presides over.

HS is a class of sin. It expresses itself strongly in deception and it's main focal point is to convince the afflicted that he is unchangeable. It is accompanied by altered senses and stimulus that suggest that his physiology isn't what he is born with. It is a very devious and subtle sin, one of the toughest temptations that man must endure.

It has it's start so that it does not startle the victim. It exploits the degree of deficiency in lack of grace that this particular individual possess. It entices the experimental inclination and intrigue he is susceptible to, and when he consents, uses this
new platform has a staging ground for further temptation to experimentation.

While this progresses in a downward spiral, his ability to trust blindly must not be compromised, has he will require at the final stage of giving in entirely a small window of hope. Through it he will receive from his brethren the suggestions that will start the remedial processes, mainly a plea from the Blessed Mother through devotion, help from St. Michael, and observances of Church obligations, and most importantly frequent confession.

AndyF
Good points Andy! Thanks!
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." -- Saint Augustine of Hippo

"The holy Rosary is a powerful weapon. Use it with confidence and you'll be amazed at the results."
--St. Josemaria Escriva

“One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, Our Lady will save the world.”
--Saint Dominic

"Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world."
--Blessed Pope Pius IX


Our Lady's 15 Promises to Those Who Pray the Rosary

Come, pray the Rosary

My Live Journal

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  #26  
Old Oct 13, '08, 8:23 pm
Jack_245814 Jack_245814 is offline
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanctamaria17 View Post
My answer:

We're all called to be chaste. That means no sex until marriage and afterward, a proper order to sexuality. God calls us ALL to live like that.

HOWEVER, I don't believe that a secular federal government has any business telling CONSENTING ADULTS what they can and cannot do in the bedroom. That goes for premarital sex, homosexual marriage, etc. That's not part of the government's job. That's the Church's job. The government was designed to protect our freedom and make sure we don't kill each other (physically, not spiritually, as it's supposed to be outside of the spiritual realm).

As for the born that way, I don't know if it's naturally hardwired or what, but from my perspective, I did not choose my sexuality. I choose how I act on it (staying chaste), but I didn't choose it.

And no, people are not natural born murderers, they choose to murder. They may have violent tendencies but they choose to act negatively on them. Also, many in the gay community will agree that pedophilia and bestiality are evil abuse to innocent children and animals and stick with CONSENTING ADULTS who just don't consider gender an important quality when falling in love (while I know God made us otherwise, many are NOT Catholic or Christian, so it's a bit different). I don't condone their lifestyle, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that they're going to fight for legal pedophilia as well.

I can imagine your gay friend would be highly offended by a possible homosexuality/pedophilia comparison. As a chaste queer, I'd take offense to that! I'm no more likely to abuse children than someone who is straight! That's sick and wrong! Just because our sexualities are a bit out of the realm (and I don't intend to act on my impulses) doesn't mean we're out to get innocent little kids! I'm sorry, but OUCH!

Seriously, outside of life issues (which should be protected), the more we try to legislate Christianity, the more we prostitute our religion and have our intentions blow up in our faces because our religion was never meant to be a political one.
I absolutely 100% agree! If gays really want to get married though, the government should definitely *not* call such a union "marriage". If they want to have "civil unions" or whatever that's fine in my book from a political perspective, but matrimony is a Sacred Mystery.

I also think - in accordance with the Catholic social teaching of subsidiarity - that such questions should be largely left up to individual cities/counties - not states and DEFINITELY not the Fed. If a small town in the bible-belt is heavily religious and wants to ban sodomy I say that should be considered fine even if you are a liberal on this issue; it's their town, they should have more of a say as to how it will be run.

I would argue against even civil unions, but if such unions were ultimately made legal in Seattle or whatever it wouldn't bother me a whole lot. It's not like the government in such a city is commanding you to have one - though they are making homosexuality more acceptable. If we leave the question of whether or not to legalize gay unions up to the entire nation or state, it's quite possible that all will be lost. If we allow the choice to be made by smaller more organic units, there's less of a chance for a widespread acceptance of this sin.

I have bisexual tendencies myself - sometimes feeling more homosexual than hetereosexual and vice versa. I recognize its sinfulness and just keep chaste and try to shun temptations to sexual fantasy - whether straight or gay.
  #27  
Old Oct 13, '08, 8:25 pm
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_245814 View Post
I absolutely 100% agree! If gays really want to get married though, the government should definitely *not* call such a union "marriage". If they want to have "civil unions" or whatever that's fine in my book from a political perspective, but matrimony is a Sacred Mystery.

I also think - in accordance with the Catholic social teaching of subsidiarity - that such questions should be largely left up to individual cities/counties - not states and DEFINITELY not the Fed. If a small town in the bible-belt is heavily religious and wants to ban sodomy I say that's fine; it's their town, they should have more of a say as to how it will be run.
I totally agree with you. I think the government needs to get out of the marriage business personally.
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." -- Saint Augustine of Hippo

"The holy Rosary is a powerful weapon. Use it with confidence and you'll be amazed at the results."
--St. Josemaria Escriva

“One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, Our Lady will save the world.”
--Saint Dominic

"Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world."
--Blessed Pope Pius IX


Our Lady's 15 Promises to Those Who Pray the Rosary

Come, pray the Rosary

My Live Journal

Holly's Catholic Blog
  #28  
Old Oct 13, '08, 9:15 pm
Steve40 Steve40 is offline
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
Hi everyone. A friend of mine has come up with an argument for homosexual marriage that I can't seem to defeat. He says that homosexuals should be allowed to marry because of the fact that they were born that way and also because they deserve to have romantic relationships too. He says it would be unjust to deprive them of equal rights just because they are attracted to the same sex. How do I counter this?
I don't think they were born with any sexual attraction to anything or anyone since at birth they were sexually inmature. Sexual atractions to trees animals or whatever can be a learned feeling or desire. An attraction does not define the meaning of something. You don't need to be attracted to someone to have a romantic relationship them or sex with them. Attractions are superficial and secondary. Getting old and decrepid together is a beutiful thing. Homo sexuals just have a head start on everyone else when it comes to the love for the old and decrepid. Looks and attraction don't mean very much. If they try to make it mean more than it does they will be very disappointed.
  #29  
Old Oct 13, '08, 10:26 pm
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

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Question Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?
Hi everyone. A friend of mine has come up with an argument for homosexual marriage that I can't seem to defeat. He says that homosexuals should be allowed to marry because of the fact that they were born that way and also because they deserve to have romantic relationships too. He says it would be unjust to deprive them of equal rights just because they are attracted to the same sex. How do I counter this?
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Hi Holly,
Homosexuals may not be responsible for how they became same sex attracted and the Catholic Church teaches that they deserve just treatment just like anybody else. So they do deserve to have equal legal rights but marriage is a religious word. It is a holy sacrament instituted by Christ between a man and a women for the begetting of children and the unity of the spouses. We are called to love everybody but we cannot condone the practice of homosexuality because it is a grave sin and against nature. The homosexual is called to live a chaste life just as a single person is called to live in chastity. Very hard to do but it is possible with God and a consistent prayer life. If they fall there is the sacrament of confession.
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  #30  
Old Oct 14, '08, 1:16 am
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Default Re: Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

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Originally Posted by Holly3278 View Post
Hi everyone. A friend of mine has come up with an argument for homosexual marriage that I can't seem to defeat. He says that homosexuals should be allowed to marry because of the fact that they were born that way
challenge him to provide scientific proof of that assertion (since there is not a shred of proof, that will be tought). I was born with diabetes does that give me an inherent right to eat the sugary foods I crave no matter what harm they do?

If they somehow prove pedophiles, rapists and psychopaths are "born that way" does that give them the right to act out their crimes?
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Whatever the Lord pleases He does, on heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. Ps. 135
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