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  #16  
Old Oct 17, '08, 6:35 am
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by RCWarrior821 View Post
If they had the wounds of Christ in their hands and Christ really was crucified through the wrists would that prove their stigmatas false? How does all this reconcile?
When miracles like the stigmata exist, it is important not to get too technical with them. For whenever God communicates like this with mankind, He is condescending to our level. For example, at various Marian apparitions, she has had a different nationality specific to the receiver of the vision.

The reason why a stigmata may not appear in the identical spot as actuality is because it is not a duplicate representation. It is a sign, that God enacts on our terms. For example, when Padre Pio would get pains on certain feast days, it did not mean the feast's occasion had to have happened on that exact day. However, because the pain came on the day Padre Pio understood as a feast day, the event took on meaning related to that feast day. The same way, the Stigmata having come via the hands and feet, which is how the event had historically been presented, thus brought with it mankind's understanding that this is a participation in the suffering in the cross. But, I wouldn't be surprised, because of our more modern forensic studies, if a stigmata appeared in the wrists in the coming centuries.

We should also acknowledge, as other historians have speculated, if Jesus was crucified through the hands it could have been possible depending on nail placement or the use of ropes like in the movie The Passion of the Christ.

You can see other examples of God's condescension to human levels in His very Incarnation, Scripture written in human language, etc.. Some Scripture accounts vary from writer to writer, like the 3 different accounts of healing Peter's mother-in-law.

God's ultimate representation would be as pure spirit. Yet we can connect with Him as such, being ourselves finite. The point with the language of Scripture, or a miracle, etc...is to determine what God is trying to communicate through our mechanisms of communication.
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  #17  
Old Oct 17, '08, 7:19 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by Luke65 View Post
Yes, "true believers" like you don't care what the evidence is. I, on the other hand, have thoroughly researched it, and prayed to God, and I know for a fact the Shroud of Turin wrapped the body of Jesus Christ, and recorded the greatest miracle in history, and was preserved until now to baffle modern science, and strengthen our faith in an age of skepticism.

"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." - Jesus Christ
You are off topic and this can get the thread closed. If you want to discuss the Shroud then please open a new thread. I hope you do because what you said is a load of rubbish.
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  #18  
Old Oct 17, '08, 11:10 am
RCWarrior821 RCWarrior821 is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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And no, I don't think that these are contradictory. After all, God may have provided the wounds on the palms since that is where it was popularly believed that the nails went. Ever since Dr. Pierre Barbet put out the wrist-arm theory and became widespread, stigmatists who were wounded on the wrists have also began to appear.
How is that possible? if Jesus was crucified through His palms and stigmatas from Saints appeared there - that would prove He was crucified through the palms but if later after the idea of being crucified through His wrists came about and people began getting the stigmata there wouldn't those stigmatas be false ones? or would they not prove that the ones prior were false?
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  #19  
Old Oct 17, '08, 11:12 am
RCWarrior821 RCWarrior821 is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by MarcoPolo View Post
When miracles like the stigmata exist, it is important not to get too technical with them. For whenever God communicates like this with mankind, He is condescending to our level. For example, at various Marian apparitions, she has had a different nationality specific to the receiver of the vision.

The reason why a stigmata may not appear in the identical spot as actuality is because it is not a duplicate representation. It is a sign, that God enacts on our terms. For example, when Padre Pio would get pains on certain feast days, it did not mean the feast's occasion had to have happened on that exact day. However, because the pain came on the day Padre Pio understood as a feast day, the event took on meaning related to that feast day. The same way, the Stigmata having come via the hands and feet, which is how the event had historically been presented, thus brought with it mankind's understanding that this is a participation in the suffering in the cross. But, I wouldn't be surprised, because of our more modern forensic studies, if a stigmata appeared in the wrists in the coming centuries.

We should also acknowledge, as other historians have speculated, if Jesus was crucified through the hands it could have been possible depending on nail placement or the use of ropes like in the movie The Passion of the Christ.

You can see other examples of God's condescension to human levels in His very Incarnation, Scripture written in human language, etc.. Some Scripture accounts vary from writer to writer, like the 3 different accounts of healing Peter's mother-in-law.

God's ultimate representation would be as pure spirit. Yet we can connect with Him as such, being ourselves finite. The point with the language of Scripture, or a miracle, etc...is to determine what God is trying to communicate through our mechanisms of communication.
wow nevermind my last post thanks for the answer makes a lot of sense
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  #20  
Old Oct 17, '08, 2:26 pm
Luke65 Luke65 is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
You are off topic and this can get the thread closed. If you want to discuss the Shroud then please open a new thread. I hope you do because what you said is a load of rubbish.
You're wrong, Thistle, I spoke the truth. And why is it off topic? The Shroud can provide confirmation that the nails were in Christ's palms, and also provide confirmation that someone's stigmata is in the right place. What better evidence do we have? I think we all know that the Bible doesn't have a separate word for wrist, so we can't prove it from God's Word.

And I also mentioned the visions of Blessed Sr. Emmerich, who herself bore the stigmata, and her visions match what we see on the Shroud.

Maybe you don't accept these things as evidence but there are millions of Catholics who do. So you go ahead and express your opinion, and I'll tell people the truth. Deal?
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  #21  
Old Oct 17, '08, 3:23 pm
adstrinity adstrinity is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano View Post
If you open your hand, and spread your fingers wide, then, take a line following the second smallest finger, and a line following the thumb, you will find these two lines cross, on the palm, about an inch from the crease where the palm meet the wrist.
If you place your thumb on thic point, and your second finger on the back of your wrist, you will find that both your thumb, and your finger will find a depression, and applying pressure between the thumb, and the finger will naturally home in onto these two depressions.
These depressions mark the junction of the same three major wrist bones.
It was into this junction that the nail was commonly driven by a skilled executioner, and the nails used were sharpened by honing, so that they penetrated this tunnel with the maximum ease, and the minimum of tearing. This was necessary, else, as others have claimed, the flesh of the hand would tear, and the hanging would be ineffective.
So, the entry wound is in the palm, just, but the exit wound is in the wrist.
Could this be done without the bones breaking?
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  #22  
Old Oct 17, '08, 5:17 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by Luke65 View Post
You're wrong, Thistle, I spoke the truth. And why is it off topic? The Shroud can provide confirmation that the nails were in Christ's palms, and also provide confirmation that someone's stigmata is in the right place. What better evidence do we have? I think we all know that the Bible doesn't have a separate word for wrist, so we can't prove it from God's Word.

And I also mentioned the visions of Blessed Sr. Emmerich, who herself bore the stigmata, and her visions match what we see on the Shroud.

Maybe you don't accept these things as evidence but there are millions of Catholics who do. So you go ahead and express your opinion, and I'll tell people the truth. Deal?
Anything Anne Emmerich said is not evidence of anything.
First, we don't have to accept anything that Anne Emmerich said. That is simply a private revelation that has nothing to do with our salvation and does not have to be believed by any Catholic. Do you agree with what I said about private revelations?

Second, what she said has nothing to do with the Shroud. If I wake up after having a dream about Christ on the cross where I saw clearly he was crucified through the palms would you accept that is proof the Shroud is genuine or that Christ was nailed through the hands? Of course not. Nothing to do with the Shroud and we know Christ was nailed through the hands because the Gospels tell us so and I believe that.

Third, you have no idea of my views on the Shroud. I am inclined to believe it is authentic. My "load of rubbish" remark to your comments is what you said about it. Let's look at what you said.

"Yes, "true believers" like you don't care what the evidence is."
Unless I have misunderstood your use of quotation marks round "true believers" you are implying that Catholics who do not believe the Shroud is genuine are not true Catholics. Is that what you are saying? If not explain what you mean.

" I know for a fact the Shroud of Turin wrapped the body of Jesus Christ"
NOBODY knows this for a fact. To say that is a blatant lie and the height of arrogance. You may believe that the Shroud is genuine (and you are allowed to believe that) but you do not know that it is a fact. Unless you were acually present in the tomb when Christ rose you do not know the Shroud is the actual burial cloth of Christ.

The most that could ever be proven is that the cloth is from the Holy Land and about 2000 years old (but the age has still not been determined) but it can never be proven that it is the actual burial cloth of Jesus. People may believe it to be that but it can never be proven so for you say it is a fact is just laughable.

By the way, Jesus made it clear that it is a wicked and evil generation that looks for signs, and Pope Benedict (when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger) told us to stop looking for signs.
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  #23  
Old Oct 18, '08, 12:07 am
Luke65 Luke65 is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
First, we don't have to accept anything that Anne Emmerich said. That is simply a private revelation that has nothing to do with our salvation and does not have to be believed by any Catholic. Do you agree with what I said about private revelations?
Of course! And that's Blessed Sr. Anne Emmerich.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
Second, what she said has nothing to do with the Shroud. If I wake up after having a dream about Christ on the cross where I saw clearly he was crucified through the palms would you accept that is proof the Shroud is genuine or that Christ was nailed through the hands?
I and many others believe her visions were from God. I mentioned them for those who might be interested to know that she described where the nails were placed - since that is what we're discussing here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
Third, you have no idea of my views on the Shroud. I am inclined to believe it is authentic. My "load of rubbish" remark to your comments is what you said about it. Let's look at what you said.

"Yes, "true believers" like you don't care what the evidence is."
Unless I have misunderstood your use of quotation marks round "true believers" you are implying that Catholics who do not believe the Shroud is genuine are not true Catholics. Is that what you are saying? If not explain what you mean.
Good Lord, no! Go back and look at the quote I was responding to. The guy mocked anybody who believes the Shroud is authentic as "true believers" who don't care what the evidence is. I was being ironical - haven't you heard people like Dawkins being called "fundamentalists" and "evangelicals", and yes, "true believers"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
" I know for a fact the Shroud of Turin wrapped the body of Jesus Christ"
NOBODY knows this for a fact. To say that is a blatant lie and the height of arrogance.

The most that could ever be proven is that the cloth is from the Holy Land and about 2000 years old (but the age has still not been determined) but it can never be proven that it is the actual burial cloth of Jesus. People may believe it to be that but it can never be proven so for you say it is a fact is just laughable.
I know for a fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the Catholic Church is His one true Church. Don't you? Prove it! Would you feel more comfortable if I said I know "with certainty" as the Church says (CCC 36, 82, etc.)?

You know, I quoted our Lord before for a reason: "You will know the truth." Did He put any limits on that? No. He said, "Ask and you will receive." So I asked, and I received - so why are you so incredulous? Go research it for yourself, and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
By the way, Jesus made it clear that it is a wicked and evil generation that looks for signs, and Pope Benedict (when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger) told us to stop looking for signs.
First of all, you're distorting what Cardinal Ratzinger said. Secondly, God has given us many signs in our time - and I didn't ask for them! I believed first, then God revealed Himself to me - you know, "Believe so that you may understand" (St. Augustine) - excellent advice.

Now, if I were you I would retract your calumnies against me, because you don't know what you're talking about.
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  #24  
Old Oct 18, '08, 12:46 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by Luke65 View Post
Of course! And that's Blessed Sr. Anne Emmerich.



I and many others believe her visions were from God. I mentioned them for those who might be interested to know that she described where the nails were placed - since that is what we're discussing here.



Good Lord, no! Go back and look at the quote I was responding to. The guy mocked anybody who believes the Shroud is authentic as "true believers" who don't care what the evidence is. I was being ironical - haven't you heard people like Dawkins being called "fundamentalists" and "evangelicals", and yes, "true believers"?



I know for a fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the Catholic Church is His one true Church. Don't you? Prove it! Would you feel more comfortable if I said I know "with certainty" as the Church says (CCC 36, 82, etc.)?

You know, I quoted our Lord before for a reason: "You will know the truth." Did He put any limits on that? No. He said, "Ask and you will receive." So I asked, and I received - so why are you so incredulous? Go research it for yourself, and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to the truth.



First of all, you're distorting what Cardinal Ratzinger said. Secondly, God has given us many signs in our time - and I didn't ask for them! I believed first, then God revealed Himself to me - you know, "Believe so that you may understand" (St. Augustine) - excellent advice.

Now, if I were you I would retract your calumnies against me, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that believing in Christ and that he is God is on the same level as whether we believe in the Shroud.
There is NO evidence that the Shroud is genuine. The Church has not declared it to be genuine and nor will they ever.
As I said the Church allows us to believe it or not and neither side can say the other is wrong. That includes you and me.
What I have been trying to point out to you but you seem to be ignoring it is that from all the research done on the Shroud there is no evidence at all to prove it is the actual burial cloth of Christ and it hasn't yet even been proven to be 2000 years old. As I said the most that could ever be proven is the age and location of its origin. It can never be proven to be the actual burial cloth of Christ.
If you weren't so arrogant and lacking in humility you might see that.
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  #25  
Old Oct 18, '08, 1:12 am
Luke65 Luke65 is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Are you seriously trying to tell us that believing in Christ and that he is God is on the same level as whether we believe in the Shroud.
You have a reading comprehension problem. I said that God did not put any limits on what He would reveal to us. I did not put those beliefs on the same level - they're infinitely different. I made one comment about what I know about the Shroud; if you didn't believe it you could've just dismissed it, or asked what I based it on. Instead you launched into a barrage of attacks and name calling. So long.
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  #26  
Old Oct 18, '08, 3:34 am
Voco proTatiano Voco proTatiano is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by adstrinity View Post
Could this be done without the bones breaking?
If, as I said, the nails are well prepare, with a needle point, rather than a spear point, and the rough edges ground away, it would,
1/ made the job of the executioner easier, as the nail could be pushed through the tunnel in the wrist, and,
2/ because the wound was a clean puncture wound, none of the tendons would be damaged, and the nail would carry the weight of the victim without tearing the flesh. Have you seen Indian fakirs lifted from the ground by meat-hooks inserted in the back?

As a secondary point, the shroud seems to indicate that this indeed was the position of the nail, and that there was minimal bleeding from the wound, indicating that it was indeed a "puncture" wound.
A follow-up on this, is that if you examine carefully, the image of the hand/wrist, that was on top, and in direct contact with the shroud, it shows a "double strike" imprint, indicating that this wrist was moved after the body was wrapped.

As for the corrected age of the shroud, working on evidence gathered from other samples, not used in the first C14 test, the age works out to be quite close to 2000 years, and indeed, there is a continuous evidence trail for the shroud, from the days of King Abgar of Edessa.

The actual implication of the shroud is that whoso was wrapped in it, was not dead, according to modern science, but was classified as dead in accordance with the science of the day, in that there was no detectable breathing or heart-beat. This condition still arises in modern medicine, and people are recorded to have awakened on the morticians slab.

Some of these people are convinced that they have been to Heaven, and been given leave to return.
This is in modern medicine called a "Near Death Experience".
Science tries to call this an illusion, and a confoundment of the dying brain, but those who have had the experience are utterly convinced that it is real.

A death like state can be caused by ingestion of the nerve poison of the puffer fish.
This was known to the doctors of the time, and even recently, in African, and Afro-Carribean cultures it was used by medicine men, to create zombies.
It is possible that this is what caused the "death" of Lazarus, and indeed, it may have been surrepticiously added to the inticted vinager given to Our Lord.

Remember, modern science now considers death to be that sleep from which there is no awakening, hence, if there is an awakening, from whatever cause, then the sleep was not death.
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  #27  
Old Oct 18, '08, 10:24 am
CentralFLJames CentralFLJames is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano View Post

A death like state can be caused by ingestion of the nerve poison of the puffer fish.
This was known to the doctors of the time, and even recently, in African, and Afro-Carribean cultures it was used by medicine men, to create zombies.
It is possible that this is what caused the "death" of Lazarus, and indeed, it may have been surrepticiously added to the inticted vinager given to Our Lord.

Remember, modern science now considers death to be that sleep from which there is no awakening, hence, if there is an awakening, from whatever cause, then the sleep was not death.
Would you say the puffer fish theory is compatible with a "death like" state induced by a victim nailed to a cross who takes a long shafted Roman spear through the right lung that crosses the medial cavity to pierce the heart after suffering 3 hrs of slow strangulation (due to arms stretched out above the victim's head where he could not under the weakness, fatigue, stress and loss of blood [from being flogged and skin flailed away with more lashes from a sharp-bone scourge than normally kill man {40} ] ) and after being forced to walk up hill while being buffeted and hit and falling under heavy load of a crossbeam while suffering the shock from lack of hydration and blood loss?

I personally can't suffer to even imagine but superficially the agony that Christ was under much less comprehend how he survived as long as he did and still be able to speak from the cross. Every word spoken had to have been painful and measured and required deliberate efforts to conserve his breath. Each breath required that he find the strength to push himself up against the cross against all pain to gasp for air before he could settle down with his mutilated raw back pressed against the post to prevent from falling down too far to get his next breath. It's unimaginable that he could survive for as long as he did.

So now you want to add highly toxic puffer fish toxins of uncontrolled concentration taken in a condition of elevated heart and respiratory rate and raw trauma into the mix to give the illusion of death? Please - don't take the speculation to the level of absurdity.

The bitter gall received on the cross was just that - soured wine - not puffer fish toxin. It was the last of the 4 traditional pascal cups taken for passover. In the upper room Jesus only drank the fist three at the last supper. He said as much that he would not drink again from the cup until he comes into his glory. He did just that at the glory of his death - the start of his kingdom on earth. The words "it is finished" have multiple meanings - one of which is that Jesus finished his passover ritual on the cross both as victim and as celebrant when he tasted that final cup of bitter pascal wine and completed the ritual.

As a further tidbit of trivia one should understand that the Romans had permanent upright posts in place to crucify people on. The condemned was made to carry the heavy rough hewn cross beam (perhaps about 70 lbs) - lashed to their arms. When Jesus fell with that weight tied to his outstretched arms it must have been agony. He probably smashed his face to a pulp and damaged his shoulders and rib cage. The three falls probably drove the thorns right into the skull. He must have been exhausted and close to death before he got all the way up the hill. Its unimaginable what he suffered - yet he never stopped and gave us every ounce of his strength. He probably would have died if they had not made Simon help carry the beam for him.

Tradition says that Christ was so disfigured and stripped of flesh from the scourges that no one could hardly recognize him as human - much less as the Jesus who had just a short time before rode into Jerusalem triumphantly on a donkey to cheering masses.

Here is another bit of trivia that most don't know. The cross beam of the cross already had holes at fixed intervals to make it easier to drive the nails in. Victims were probably lashed, at least in part, to the cross as well as nailed to it. There are some who think Christ's head was pulled back and lashed to the cross with more thorns pulled tight around his head. Before the person was hoisted up on upright part of the fixed cross the executioner laid them out and stretched their arms taught on the cross beam to reach the hole that was just beyond their reach. So the bones were pulled out of their sockets to make the victim conform to the dimensions of the cross and to inflict more pain. Then they were pinned through the palms in that severely stretched position and then roughly hoisted up the pole where the cross member was pegged to the upright member. The foot was nailed to its pedestal one over the other. That foot pedestal was the only way that the victim could gain enough support to lift his weary body up to take a breath of air. Each breath was agony and caused severe pain to take and as the exhaustion set it the breaths came every slower and ever shallower. Given that Jesus was physically beat to a pulp and probably had cracked or severely bruised ribs - each breath must have been excruciating. This form of torture was meant to cause despair and to make the victim wish they were dead.

A unbelievably terrible way to die without the need to conjure up puffer fish theories...

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  #28  
Old Oct 18, '08, 11:33 am
Voco proTatiano Voco proTatiano is offline
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Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

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Originally Posted by CentralFLJames View Post
Would you say
Hi James,
I'll try to answer your points:
Quote:
the puffer fish theory is compatible with a "death like" state induced by a victim nailed to a cross who takes a long shafted Roman spear through the right lung that crosses the medial cavity to pierce the heart
There is no evidence that the heart was pierced. The spear stroke was not intended to kill, but to detect life, ie to check for reaction to pain.
Quote:
after suffering 3 hrs of slow strangulation
- asphyxiation, not strangulation -
Quote:
(due to arms stretched out above the victim's head where he could not under the weakness, fatigue, stress and loss of blood
I do know the theory. Actually, loss of blood was minimised to prolong the suffering. Likewise the impaling nails were smoothed to reduce tearing of flesh, so that the body was more securely hung.
Quote:
[from being flogged and skin flailed away with more lashes from a sharp-bone scourge
The flagellum used was like a cat-o-nine tails, but was not terminated with cutting shards, but with leaden dumbells, to bruise rather than to cut. Again the intent was not that the victim die through loss of blood, hence more quickly. This was contrary to the intent that the execution be protracted.
Quote:
than normally kill man {40} ] ) and after being forced to walk up hill while being buffeted and hit and falling under heavy load of a crossbeam while suffering the shock from lack of hydration and blood loss?
Again, this assumption is contrary to intent.
It would be a pity if the victim died of shock on his way to the hill.
Great care was taken that he arrive alive, and fit enough to suffer, often many days of hanging on the cross. Surviving a week was not uncommon.
Quote:

I personally can't suffer to even imagine . . . . . It's unimaginable that he could survive for as long as he did.

So now you want to add highly toxic puffer fish toxins . . . . .? Please - don't take the speculation to the level of absurdity.
It was not uncommon, when the execution detail was of a merciful intent, that the victim was offered wine inticted with myrrh. this was to disguise the presence of opium, so that the victim might suffer less, and not fight for breath, so dying very quickly, in minutes only.
Puffer fish poison might also have been used for this purpose, but miraculously, accidentally, only the dose required to simulate death was ingested.
Quote:
The bitter gall received on the cross was just that - soured wine - not puffer fish toxin.
The wine was not just sour, it was deliberately intincted with myrrh. It might have been intincted with other compounds, including opium and puffer fish toxin, but known for rapid efectivity.
Quote:
It was the last of the 4 traditional pascal cups . . . . completed the ritual.

As a further tidbit of trivia one should understand that the Romans had permanent upright posts in place to crucify people on. The condemned was made to carry the heavy rough hewn cross beam . . . . He probably would have died if they had not made Simon help carry the beam for him.
Yes, as I said, the intent was to avoid premature death of the victim
Quote:

Tradition says that Christ was so disfigured and stripped of flesh from the scourges that no one could hardly recognize him as human - much less as the Jesus who had just a short time before rode into Jerusalem triumphantly on a donkey to cheering masses.

Here is another bit of trivia that most don't know. The cross beam of the cross already had holes at fixed intervals to make it easier to drive the nails in. Victims were probably lashed, at least in part, to the cross as well as nailed to it. There are some who think Christ's head was pulled back and lashed to the cross with more thorns pulled tight around his head. Before the person was hoisted up on upright part of the fixed cross the executioner laid them out and stretched their arms taught on the cross beam to reach the hole that was just beyond their reach. So the bones were pulled out of their sockets to make the victim conform to the dimensions of the cross and to inflict more pain. Then they were pinned through the palms in that severely stretched position and then roughly hoisted up the pole where the cross member was pegged to the upright member. The foot was nailed to its pedestal one over the other. That foot pedestal was the only way that the victim could gain enough support to lift his weary body up to take a breath of air. Each breath was agony and caused severe pain to take and as the exhaustion set it the breaths came every slower and ever shallower. Given that Jesus was physically beat to a pulp and probably had cracked or severely bruised ribs - each breath must have been excruciating. This form of torture was meant to cause despair and to make the victim wish they were dead.
And was intended to be protracted, using the torturer's science of walking on the edge of death, but not allowing the victim the merciful exit. This required, and as some have recently discovered, still requires considerable skill and care.
Quote:

A unbelievably terrible way to die without the need to conjure up puffer fish theories...
I never posited that the crucifixion was a fraud.
Nor that the resurrection was an illusion.
In the science of that time, Our Lord was dead.
As was Lazarus,
As was the only son of the widow of Nain.

I just said, that to modern science, there is no resurrection from the dead, for if the sleeper awakes, then he cannot have been dead, for death is that sleep from which there is no awakening.
Quote:
James
Let it not be said that I minimise the suffering of Our Lord.
However, He spent but three hours hung, whereas it was common for a sufferer to endure up to 160 hours.
Pilate himself was amazed at the brevity of the proceedings.

Peace James.
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  #29  
Old Oct 18, '08, 4:52 pm
Debra C Debra C is offline
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Join Date: March 13, 2007
Posts: 430
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

We don't know. That's pretty much that.

There was a scientist who claimed it couldn't possibly have been through the palms because they could not support the body's weight. However, his research and expiramentation assumed the feet were unsupported. The only hard archaelogical evidence we can find of a crucifixion is a human heel bone with a nail embedded in it. This would indicate the the feet may well have been supported. More recent experiments have shown that with the feet supported, there is no problem with the palms supporting the body.

Many historians believe there was not any single codified method by which the Romans did this, as it is never documented. And in the Hebrew and Aramaic of Jesus's times it seems there was often no distinciton made, as we do in modern English, between the palms, wrists, and lower forearms. The only thing we have is the traditional depiction of the nails through the palms, and we have no way of ascertaining when that depiction originated.

The idea of rejecting stigmata based on their placement has been raised by many a skeptic, but theologically it holds little water. The Church's belief is that this phenomenon occurs as a result of a person's faith and intense desire to share in the sufferings of Christ. Many stigmata sufferers never incur visible wounds, but only the pain. Since it is a miraculous gift that is given through such faith and meditation on the wounds of Chirst, it would be reasonable to expect that any wounds would appear where the person praying expected them to, not necessarily where Christ's wounds were actually inflicted. Sadly, there have been some stigmatics that have been proven fakes, making such skepticism ever easier. However, it does not follow that because one person might self inflict the wounds of Chirst in order to win attention, that all stigmatics have done so.
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Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Holy Mother Mary, pray for us.
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  #30  
Old May 15, '12, 8:24 am
Barukh1132 Barukh1132 is offline
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Join Date: May 15, 2012
Posts: 3
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Hands? Wrists? Stigmata?

[quote=thistle;4306404]Anything Anne Emmerich said is not evidence of anything./QUOTE]

Likewise, nothing thistle says is evidence of anything.
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