Do we HAVE to vote for McCain?

[estesbob]

Originally Posted by Sailka

• It is 100% False to say or even think that as Catholics we Must vote on one Issue. The USCCB's condemn that. We Must consider all the Major Inherent Intrinsic Evils of Candidates. War for 100 years in an area we have No reason to be, And 2 countries have been destroyed, with Millions of Refugees, and Initiating War Crime Torture of over 100,000 Suspects by This using 'Pro-Life' to barely, illegally take the White House in 2000, Party Record has to be considered. And the Total Bankruptcy of the USA, Potential Happening NOW, These months was announced by the GAO in May This Year. The 'pro-life candidate wants to Increase Massive Tax Breaks for the Filthiest Rich Now Companies in USA > Big Oil, Big Drug companies, Both Subsidized by Us.

• Destruction Actual) of the USA Economic Future Viability Begun by Reagam Finished by This administration, Being the Centerpiece of This Party's Essence, can not be supported.
  • Anyone remember the previous, Clinton Admisdtration, Miraculousl;y turning the Same type Recession, Massive Reaganite record deficits into Ideal Business Profits, Full Employment, And Record Surpluses?
  Avvording to the USCCB ideal guidelines, Both Candidatres have Major Inherent Evil Agendas. Yet, I may follow THE USCCB Guidelines in voting for the Lesser of evils, against my wishes of Third Party voting in Protest.

You have posted the same nonsense in many threads and content ignore the fact that not a single member of the magestruim has agreed with your assessment. Of course he issues as you lay them out are such a gross over exaggeration of reality that it is impossible to discuss it with you. Throughout all of recorded history man has always come up with great excuses for supporting evil. There been many before you have have done this and will be many after. Meanwhile the children continue to die.

[Terry_from_Ypsi]

In regard to FOCA - this was passed by both houses of Congress and vetoed by President Bush.

So, if Obama is elected he can sign FOCA into law.

Second in a statement by Dr. Peter Kreft at Our Lady of Good Consul, Plymouth Michigan, he made the point that Alan Keyes' chances were slim and that Keyes was, in my paraphrased quote
not a very good choice for President. It would be better to go with McCain.

In my opinion, it is a mortal sin to vote for Obama because of his support of the Choice for abortion and his regret at having voted to intervene in the case of Teri Schiavo, and his teaching heresy that
Jesus Christ is NOT the only Way to the Father.

Regards,

[sedonaman]

Originally Posted by estesbob

Throughout all of recorded history man has always come up with great excuses for supporting evil.

Yes, and they always attach some good to it to mislead the unwary, for evil must appear good to be accepted; hence, we get statements like "pro-choice" and "Obama's policies will result in fewer abortions than McCain's."

[Peter Michael]

Yes we can! We can absolutey in good conscience vote for
Sen. Obama. Catholics can differ in the strategies to end abortion. Some bishops believe that only an all out assault on abortion through legal meals can end abortions. Others disagree.

An earlier 1989 statement by bishops stands in stark contrast to some bishops’statements today.

In this earlier statement, some US bishops warned anti-abortion groups not to ''give their adversaries an easy victory'' by quarreling over political strategy. The anti-abortion movement has often been divided between "those focusing on whatever restrictions on abortion they judge politically attainable" and "those who feel that advocating anything less than an almost total ban on abortion is a compromise of principle."

''We wanted to say, Don't let the best become the enemy of the good,'' Bishop McHugh said. ''Pro-life groups can get locked into a single solution and miss opportunities or even fritter away energy fighting with one another,'' he said.

Abortion opponents have to ''take into account that people who may be essentially in agreement with them are not convinced there is only one way, especially a legal way, to solve the problem,'' Bishop McHugh said. Building a consensus has to accompany the changing of laws, he said.

Other members of the 1989 bishop committee were the then John Cardinal O'Connor of New York, Archbishop William Levada of Portland, Ore., Auxiliary Bishop Francis Dunn of Dubuque, Iowa, Bishop Edward Head of Buffalo and Auxiliary Bishop Edward O'Donnell of St. Louis

Some pro-life Catholic believe that abortion will never be ended by legal means. Even in the very unlikely event that one or more conservative justice is nominated to the Supreme Court we have no guarantees that the new justice will overturn Roe v. Wade. Afterall, the new Chief Justice Roberts has publicly stated he is opposed to overturning long term precedent. Justice Alito was only willing to say that he was "open" to overturning Roe v. Wade. What we forget is the Justice Brennan who wrote the majority opinion for Roe v. Wade was a Republican appointee AND a Catholic.

And, IS Sen. McCain for overturning Roe v. Wade? We know he support embryonic stem cell research which use the unborn. And, his wife in television interview stated she was "not" in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade. When she was asked if Sen. McCain was and she said "no."

But, let us suppose a President McCain does want to overturn Roe v. Wade. And, let us suppose he accomplishes it through a new court. What will happen? The abortion issue will go to the individual states and will we still have legalized abortion. States like California will have very 'liberal' laws and women in states with restrictive laws will merely fly to California.

The Louis Harris polls has shown that Americans have consistently supported abortion to protect the life of the mother. It would be difficult to propose that Americans will agree that "only the state" could determine when a mother's health would be in jeapardy. I think in the end when Americans are faced the possibiliy of the end to legalized abortion to protect the health of the mother that majority voters will opt for more liberal laws that protect the woman's right to decide with her doctor when her health and life is in jeapardy.

So, if one believes as I do that the state will never criminalize and put an end abortion, then voting for candidates promising to end abortion cannot be the only reason for a Catholic to vote for Sen. McCain. Remember the Republican party has promised us for 34 years that they would end abortion.

Thus, for me as a Catholic, it comes down to which President is more likely to address the need for abortion by providing adequate healthcare, prenatal care, social services and supports to help a woman keep her child. Abortion rates for White women have dropped to their lowest level in 30 years through education and media campaigns. Right now, minority have the highest rates. Which candidate is more likely to inspire hope for the future for minority women?

You see Catholics can disagree on strategies to end abortion. I happen to believe that winning the hearts and minds of Americans is the more promising. The perpetual abortion wars and hate rhetoric on both sides is not going to end it.

Peter Michael

[Sailka]

Originally Posted by FiremanFrank

You asked: "Do we HAVE to vote for McCain?"

If you are referring to "we" as Faithful Catholics, then the unequivocal answer is:

YES

To reiterate once again ...

YES

We HAVE to vote for McCain. We Have to.

[list]
B]NO! NO NO! The USCCB outstanding Guidelines for Voters advises Not to Vote for a Candidate who supports an Intrinsic Evil like Legal Abortion Or Racism may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support. McCain's War for 'even 100 years' in Iraq until "WE WIN" Instead of negotiating Peace, steady withdrawal; And New Massive Tax cuts on the Giant Biggest Profits Oil and Drug companies, As the USA This May (GAO) was stated to be on verge of Bankruptcy, Headed Into it, with Highest Deficits in World History, Now, These Months.

• And USA having second highest Infant Born death rate of all advanced countries. And Welfare transferred from Poor to Richest (This administration Globalization Policy), Which Is Why we are now Record deficits bankrupt, from Ideal Boom, Surpluses Through FY 2001.
  • And, if you have not heard, The International policy of the Republican Elite Party Is War, unjustifiably. Etc, Etc. Etc.
    • The FC 20First Obligation for Catholics is to "Build a more just and peaceful world through morally acceptable means, so that the weak and vulnerable are are protected and human rights and dignity are defended".

[/color] www.faithfulcitizenship.org[/color]

[MDK]

Originally Posted by Katrinka Yobotz

McCain supports killing embryos for research; supports abortion if a baby's father committed the crime of rape; and States' "choice", i.e. the states should have "right" to legalize abortion.
McCain said "We're not representing their hopes and dreams and aspirations. We worry about Ms Schiavo before we worry about balancing the budget."
McCain said "I think that gay marriage should be allowed if there's a ceremony kind of thing, if you wanna call it that. I don't have any problem with that."
McCain said on October 28, 2008, "I voted for [pro-abortion Supreme Court Judges] Breyer and Ginsburg. I voted for them because President Clinton was elected and they were qualified. Ideologically I didn't agree with them but they were qualified."

Many, including some priests and bishops, are endorsing McCain out of fear of Obama. Here are only a couple of passages from The Catechism of the Catholic Church on the topic of human life:

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. -- Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you. -- My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

A compilation of other pertinent passages from The Catechism: http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/t...ew.asp?tid=722

According to Catholic doctrine, we are ALWAYS to choose LIFE. No excuses. This would especially be true when there are candidates available who DO meet the standard of church teaching on human life.

The answer to the question, "Do we HAVE to vote for McCain?" is "No." Alan Keyes is on the ballot or a write-in in 29 states:
http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/t...ew.asp?tid=625

Welcome to Catholic Forums. We see this is your first post. What you've posted is so blatantly misleading and such nonsense, that it makes one wonder what your real intent is. Please take a look at the truth. To correct your misinformation, McCain is the clear choice when following the advice and admonitions of the Pope and Bishops. There is clear and unified voice of the Pope and Magisterium against the non-negotiable moral issues. The Pope has elevated abortion and euthanasia as something that disqualifies a candidate. Therefore, 0bama cannot be supported by a Catholic who desires to be in communion with the Pope and Magisterium.

The instruction is that we must support legal protection of the entire human family. Secondly, we must limit the harm being done. Therefore, a vote for anyone other than McCain in a closely contested race is the same as not voting against 0bama and his promotion of intrinsic evil. Therefore, we would not be voting to limit the harm being done.

First, to say that McCain supports states rights as though that were bad, is a red herring. He supports getting rid of Roe v Wade, which would return it to State's rights. This is a very good next step, which is what he has said is the right direction.

Please take a real look at who supports what as is provided many places including Catholic Priests supported information http://www.priestsforlife.org/elections/index.htm. It's repeated below in shorter form.

Roe v Wade
Obama supports. McCain Opposes.

Partial Birth Abortion Ban
Obama opposes ban. McCain supports ban.

Taxpayer funding of Abortion
Obama supports. McCain opposes.

Parental Notification Law
Obama opposes. McCain supports.

Protecting Abortion Survivors
Obama opposed. McCain supported.

Human Cloning
Obama supports. McCain opposes.

Embryonic Stem Cell Research: - they're both wrong, but 0bama wants to accelerate and McCain wants to find a better way.
Obama voted in favor of funding embryonic stem cell research. Should expand and accelerate use of these embryos.
McCain voted in favor of funding embryonic stem cell research. He looks forward to skin cell research being developed.

Homosexual Marriage
Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as married couples.
McCain believes that a marriage must be protected as a sacred institution between a man and woman.

Terri Schiavo
Obama didn't stop congress intervention into the families. He didn't stop that and regrets it.
McCain views Terri Schiavo's case as an American tragedy. He hopes next time that it will be approached in a more measures and reasonable fashion.

[JimG]

Originally Posted by Peter Michael

Some pro-life Catholic believe that abortion will never be ended by legal means.

And the enactment of the Freedom of Choice Act, as Obama has promised, will ensure that it can never be ended by legal means. Rather it will ensure its continuance and increase with no limitations.

It can hardly be a valid way to fight abortion by voting for the most ardently pro-abortion candidate ever.

It might be useful to listen to this audio clip from Bishop Finn of Kansas City, linked on the front page of the diocesan newspaper, The Catholic Key:

(KCMO radio interviews Bishop Finn on Election / Obama)
http://catholickey.blogspot.com/2008...-election.html

[zab]

Originally Posted by MDK

Welcome to Catholic Forums. We see this is your first post. What you've posted is so blatantly misleading and such nonsense, that it makes one wonder what your real intent is. .

What an insult. Is this the way to treat new members?

[MDK]

Originally Posted by Peter Michael

Yes we can! We can absolutey in good conscience vote for
Sen. Obama. Catholics can differ in the strategies to end abortion. Some bishops believe that only an all out assault on abortion through legal meals can end abortions. Others disagree.

An earlier 1989 statement by bishops stands in stark contrast to some bishops’statements today.

In this earlier statement, some US bishops warned anti-abortion groups not to ''give their adversaries an easy victory'' by quarreling over political strategy. The anti-abortion movement has often been divided between "those focusing on whatever restrictions on abortion they judge politically attainable" and "those who feel that advocating anything less than an almost total ban on abortion is a compromise of principle."

''We wanted to say, Don't let the best become the enemy of the good,'' Bishop McHugh said. ''Pro-life groups can get locked into a single solution and miss opportunities or even fritter away energy fighting with one another,'' he said.

Abortion opponents have to ''take into account that people who may be essentially in agreement with them are not convinced there is only one way, especially a legal way, to solve the problem,'' Bishop McHugh said. Building a consensus has to accompany the changing of laws, he said.

Other members of the 1989 bishop committee were the then John Cardinal O'Connor of New York, Archbishop William Levada of Portland, Ore., Auxiliary Bishop Francis Dunn of Dubuque, Iowa, Bishop Edward Head of Buffalo and Auxiliary Bishop Edward O'Donnell of St. Louis

Some pro-life Catholic believe that abortion will never be ended by legal means. Even in the very unlikely event that one or more conservative justice is nominated to the Supreme Court we have no guarantees that the new justice will overturn Roe v. Wade. Afterall, the new Chief Justice Roberts has publicly stated he is opposed to overturning long term precedent. Justice Alito was only willing to say that he was "open" to overturning Roe v. Wade. What we forget is the Justice Brennan who wrote the majority opinion for Roe v. Wade was a Republican appointee AND a Catholic.

And, IS Sen. McCain for overturning Roe v. Wade? We know he support embryonic stem cell research which use the unborn. And, his wife in television interview stated she was "not" in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade. When she was asked if Sen. McCain was and she said "no."

But, let us suppose a President McCain does want to overturn Roe v. Wade. And, let us suppose he accomplishes it through a new court. What will happen? The abortion issue will go to the individual states and will we still have legalized abortion. States like California will have very 'liberal' laws and women in states with restrictive laws will merely fly to California.

The Louis Harris polls has shown that Americans have consistently supported abortion to protect the life of the mother. It would be difficult to propose that Americans will agree that "only the state" could determine when a mother's health would be in jeapardy. I think in the end when Americans are faced the possibiliy of the end to legalized abortion to protect the health of the mother that majority voters will opt for more liberal laws that protect the woman's right to decide with her doctor when her health and life is in jeapardy.

So, if one believes as I do that the state will never criminalize and put an end abortion, then voting for candidates promising to end abortion cannot be the only reason for a Catholic to vote for Sen. McCain. Remember the Republican party has promised us for 34 years that they would end abortion.

Thus, for me as a Catholic, it comes down to which President is more likely to address the need for abortion by providing adequate healthcare, prenatal care, social services and supports to help a woman keep her child. Abortion rates for White women have dropped to their lowest level in 30 years through education and media campaigns. Right now, minority have the highest rates. Which candidate is more likely to inspire hope for the future for minority women?

You see Catholics can disagree on strategies to end abortion. I happen to believe that winning the hearts and minds of Americans is the more promising. The perpetual abortion wars and hate rhetoric on both sides is not going to end it.

Peter Michael

Wow. Your assessment is a misleading portrayal of the Bishops and the conclusions. What we must do as faithful Catholics is really simple and clear.

The Bishops have clearly stated that we must not do only one thing, but everything necessary. We must provide legal protection for all of the human family, and provide care and help as well. We also must work on hearts and minds.

The method of delivering help and support can be legitimately discussed by faithful Catholics, whether the government should do it, or have more charitable organizations involved.

The question of legally protecting all of the human family, from conception until natural death is off the table. This issue is clear from the Bishops.

Therefore, 0bama is disqualified. One cannot be in communion with the Pope and Magisterium, while supporting 0bama's pro-death platform.

There are those who will try to tell up down is up, and up is down. Don't listen. The spirit of anti-Christ is alive and clearly evident in the pro-death society, even among those who might call themselves a generic Christian or even a Catholic Christian.

[sedonaman]

Originally Posted by Katrinka Yobotz

According to Catholic doctrine, we are ALWAYS to choose LIFE. No excuses. This would especially be true when there are candidates available who DO meet the standard of church teaching on human life.

The answer to the question, "Do we HAVE to vote for McCain?" is "No." Alan Keyes is on the ballot or a write-in in 29 states ...

I have voted for Keyes in the past, but you do have to consider some facts:

1. Obama has a record, and has made statements, that show he is about as far away from Catholic social teaching on protecting innocent human life as you can get;

2. McCain supports some stem cell research and abortion in only very limited situations;

3. Alan Keyes seems to be 100% behind the Catholic position on abortion and embryonic stem cell research, i.e., never justified under any circumstances. However, Alan Keyes hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of winning; therefore,

4. What practical course of action will further Catholic social teaching to produce a more just society?

“It doesn’t matter whether your intentions are noble or corrupt. The American political system operates in a certain way, and has certain consequences attached to that operation. Ignoring this reality will serve only one purpose. It will not advance your cause, promote your political philosophy, or teach corrupt politicians a lesson. Instead, it will reduce you to an irrelevant afterthought and do far more to damage the beliefs and ideas you hold dear, than advance them."

For a good discussion see http://www.intellectualconservative....s-the-question

5. I haven’t seen any discussion on this or any other forum that looks beyond a John McCain presidency that would put Sarah Palin more in the political forefront for an bid for a future presidency. Obama’s feminist supporters are attacking her for one reason: she represents the epitome of why women don’t need them or abortion.

[MDK]

Originally Posted by zab

What an insult. Is this the way to treat new members?

New or not new doesn't matter. If it's true, how can it be an insult? It was not intended to insult, but to expose an obviously misleading post. It was missed the essential points and didn't portray a big enough picture to be properly directed. What do you say to one who distorts the issue and misleads on something this critical? This election is too important to be mislead by those who would have us not do our Catholic duties.

Do you have something against the Truth?

[Lujack]

This is only my second post here, after a long time of browsing, so hopefully you won't question me as a sleeper agent of some sort, as I've seen many other people on here accused of, but is there a possibility that an Obama victory could be the best thing for a true pro-life candidate?

Think about it: the Republican Party has used the issue of abortion to lock Catholics and other Christians of similar beliefs into voting Republican for the past 25 years or so. The party bosses are smart enough to realize that treading water on the abortion issue is the best way to keep us under their thumb.

If the Republicans are soundly defeated in this election, they will have to rethink their platform. A Republican victory, however, will allow them to continue using abortion as nothing more than something to win votes, and never actually make any real move towards ending it, while a smashing defeat will force them to re-invent themselves as a genuinely pro-life party. The creation of that party would be a great force for good, and give us a real chance at ending abortion in the United States.

It won't, however, happen unless the Republicans realize that their current strategy is not working.

[sedonaman]

Originally Posted by Peter Michael

We can absolutey [sic] in good conscience vote for Sen. Obama.

How can that be since the bishops have clearly disqualified pro-abortion candidates from consideration by Catholics? Your idea about increasing social services for unwed mothers has been most accurately described by the bishops as "like subsidizing criminals in the hopes of reducing crime." Is the Abortion Industrial Complex supporting Obama in force because his policies will lead to fewer abortions?

Besides, only about 6% of abortions are for economic reasons; the overwhelming are for birth control.

[sedonaman]

Originally Posted by Katrinka Yobotz

If the next election is Obama versus a Republican who is worse than Obama, do you then choose Obama?

Could you please describe a candidate who would be worse [as far as being pro-abortion] than Obama?

[MDK]

Originally Posted by Lujack

This is only my second post here, after a long time of browsing, so hopefully you won't question me as a sleeper agent of some sort, as I've seen many other people on here accused of, but is there a possibility that an Obama victory could be the best thing for a true pro-life candidate?

Think about it: the Republican Party has used the issue of abortion to lock Catholics and other Christians of similar beliefs into voting Republican for the past 25 years or so. The party bosses are smart enough to realize that treading water on the abortion issue is the best way to keep us under their thumb.

If the Republicans are soundly defeated in this election, they will have to rethink their platform. A Republican victory, however, will allow them to continue using abortion as nothing more than something to win votes, and never actually make any real move towards ending it, while a smashing defeat will force them to re-invent themselves as a genuinely pro-life party. The creation of that party would be a great force for good, and give us a real chance at ending abortion in the United States.

It won't, however, happen unless the Republicans realize that their current strategy is not working.

We know that one Candidate has vowed to make access open and funding for abortion public. Planned Parenthood has said that this will increase the number of abortions. While what they do is evil, we have no reason to doubt that they do know their business. We as Catholics can't support this.

Take a look at what the Pope and Bishops have said. We must legally protect all of the human family. We know one candidate will not, and one has said he will do what he can. We know that we can't always count on Supreme's to do the right thing, but it's guaranteed that those appointed by the Democrats will be those who are known to support pro-death culture.

No matter who makes it into office, we must continue to be against this intrinsically evil act, and take a multifaceted approach to ending it. As a Catholic, a strategy of voting for 0bama is not on the table. God left the Catholic Church for us, not the Democrat or Republican Party. The Bishops represent the continuation of the mission given to the Apostles sent out by Christ. Christ said that he who rejects them, rejects Christ. He who rejects Christ rejects the One who sent Christ.