Do we HAVE to vote for McCain? - Page 33

jkleinsc · #**481** Nov 3, '08, 12:40 pm

I wouldn't say we HAVE to vote for McCain/Palin(although I am VERY proud to say that I am voting for them!). The only problem I have with 3rd party candidates like Bob Barr or whomever else may sway someone from McCain is that this race is goign to be so close, and the dangers of a pro-abortion President Obama are so dire. To protect ALL innocent life I really feel we need McCain/Palin.

Lujack · #**482** Nov 3, '08, 12:49 pm

I didn't say I was voting for Barack Obama. To me, the secret ballot is very important, and I will not say who I'm voting for, one way or the other, until the election is over (even through an alias). However, it would seem the intelligent course to look at both possibilities, and consider the results.

I do not believe the Republican party will end abortion, because they have made no move towards doing so. I believe very firmly they are using abortion to lock up our votes, and I think that immediately following the election, the effort to transform at least one party into a truly pro-life one should begin.

**fix** · #**483** Nov 3, '08, 1:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katrinka Yobotz

We compromise with evil when we fear: "I don't believe that enough of my brothers and sisters in Christ are going to vote for the pro-life candidate, so I am not going to vote for him either."

That's making other human beings our standard. God is pro-life. God is our standard.

When folks vote to limit a greater evil from happening they are not morally compromising, they are doing good.

MDK · #**484** Nov 3, '08, 1:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katrinka Yobotz

Catholic Church doctrine:

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

John McCain does not respect nor protect all human life absolutely from the moment of conception. Nor does he recognize the inviolable right to life of every innocent being
from the first moment of existence.

We compromise with evil when we fear: "I don't believe that enough of my brothers and sisters in Christ are going to vote for the pro-life candidate, so I am not going to vote for him either."

That's making other human beings our standard. God is pro-life. God is our standard.

This is spectacularly misguided, and leads one away from actually applying the Catholic teaching to this election cycle which tells us to vote for the least harm being done. In close elections, you're advocating exactly the opposite of what the Church asks us to do, which is to limit the harm likely to be done. By following the Bishops and Pope, we end up with McCain as our candidate that we as Catholics need to support.

We'd love it if the President, all of Congress, and all of the Senate were completely pro-life.

To follow the proper guidelines in line with the Bishops, please see http://www.catholic.com/support/voters_guide.asp.

In the section headed "How To Vote" the first item is:

1. For each office, first determine how each candidate with a real - even if unlikely - chance of winning stands of each issue that will come before him and involves non-negotiable moral principles.

To answer that first item, there would be two candidates, 0bama and McCain. No one else has a real chance of winning the White House.

Voting for McCain is completely in line with the Bishops and the Pope for this election cycle. If someone was better than McCain and had a real chance of winning, we would be called to vote for that person, but that's not the case this election cycle. There will be no President Alan Keyes, but voting for him is the same as not voting against the most pro-abortion candidate, if the race is close.

**fix** · #**485** Nov 3, '08, 1:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katrinka Yobotz

That may be true when those are the only choices we have. But we have candidates with three distinct positions:

1. Kill babies.
2. Kill fewer babies, maybe.
3. Kill no babies.

The kill no babies will not win. Just because one is on a ballot does not mean they have any chance of winning. Reality matters.

SORROWS · #**486** Nov 3, '08, 1:16 pm

Once a "bad" politician like Obama takes office and opens the door to all types of atrocities like partial-birth abortion, embrionic stem cell testing and cloning, it's very very very difficult to undo the damage. Especially with removing GOD from everything as I believe he will do. In God We Trust will be a thing of the past.

This is all the devils work. We are allowing this to be a Godless society and it's being done with our own free will. Sad indeed.

MDK · #**487** Nov 3, '08, 1:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katrinka Yobotz

Just a couple more points.

By what they have said, McCain/Palin will not protect ALL human life.

The Republican-Democrat-Media monopoly would have us believe, to their benefit, that there are only two candidates for whom to vote for the winner with a majoirty of the votes. In reality, as votes are cast for other than the Republican-Democrat, fewer votes will be needed to attain the plurality of votes to win.

It is in the peoples', and especially prenatal babies', best interests to vote for the pro-life candidate who best represents YOU.

Are you going to follow the Pope and Bishops, or are you going to disregard their words and guides? If you will be in communion with the Pope and Bishops, you need to make an adjustment to what you've posted above, because what you've posted above does not have it's foot in reality for this election cycle.

0bama will not protect any human life from conception until birth. 0bama will expand the access to abortions, eliminate parental notification, and increase public funding for abortion... this will increase abortions according to Planned Parenthood, who know this evil business.

Roy5 · #**488** Nov 3, '08, 1:26 pm

A CHRISTIAN DEFENSE OF OBAMA

As always, neither candidate meets the qualifications that most of us have in mind. We usually end up voting for the one who is least offense.

I will vote for Obama because of my faith. Here are three of many reasons - briefly stated.

1. The election of Obama will electrify the world and will strengthen our position considerably against Islamic terrorism by weakening the influence of bin Laden & Co among Muslims and by increasing the trust of our allies and others in the policies and general wisdom of the USA. At the moment, most of the world regards us as gun-happy.

2. Obama had the sense to oppose the foolish and costly war in Iraq and recognized that our enemy was in the mountains and Afghanistan and neighboring Pakistan. McCain still declares that the invasion of Iraq was justified. Obama will go after bin Laden, but will also emphasize negotiation and, like Jesus, be ready to sit down with sinners. I trust God to bless his efforts. McCain and Palin, in contrast, appear too attached to military solutions, while I agree with Christ re peacemakers in his sermon on the mount.

3. The election of Obama will go a long way toward ending the racial chasm that has been so injurious for centuries in America. It will serve as a balm among African-Americans and Obama will become an influential and urgent role model for black men. Obama would be a well-spoken, moderate biracial president and will eclipse such racial exploiters as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

I have regarded myself as a lifelong Republican, but far more important, a would-be faithful disciple of Christ. We need to be people of deeper trust in the ideology of Jesus and not in the sinister political machinations of the world.

As for the abortion issue, both parties are unlikely to make it a crime. The goal must be to make abortions rarer and rarer. I believe this is as likely, perhaps more likely, with Obama as with McCain.

I also have trouble with McCain unfaithfulness to his first wife and his remarriage to the richest woman in Arizona. And as for Palin, she makes a wonderful cheerleader, but she scares me. That whole end-times theology of version of Christianity with which she has been associated is off the wall and dangerous.

MDK · #**489** Nov 3, '08, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katrinka Yobotz

That's it! There it is! Life is THE non-negotiable moral principle. totally 100% pro-life Alan Keyes and Chuck Baldwin both have a real - even if unlikely - chance of wining.

The beautiful thing is, if people would but vote their conscience for the person who most represents them and follow God's way of choosing life, the chance of winning for such a candidate actually increases as the votes are split.

I think you focus too much on unlikely, and even then don't apply it properly to the situation... you also apparently missed the word "real." Unfortunately, both Alan Keyes and Chuck Baldwin have no chance of winning the presidency. These two don't even really have an unlikely chance... it's literally no real chance. Unfortunately, your suggestion is simply a fantasy, and nothing more.

Those who want to be truly Catholic will vote according to what the Bishops tell us. What you're espousing is not what the Pope and Bishops tell us.

Will you follow the Pope and Bishops?

**estesbob** · #**490** Nov 3, '08, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDK

Wow. Your assessment is a misleading portrayal of the Bishops and the conclusions. What we must do as faithful Catholics is really simple and clear.

The Bishops have clearly stated that we must not do only one thing, but everything necessary. We must provide legal protection for all of the human family, and provide care and help as well. We also must work on hearts and minds.

The method of delivering help and support can be legitimately discussed by faithful Catholics, whether the government should do it, or have more charitable organizations involved.

The question of legally protecting all of the human family, from conception until natural death is off the table. This issue is clear from the Bishops.

Therefore, 0bama is disqualified. One cannot be in communion with the Pope and Magisterium, while supporting 0bama's pro-death platform.

There are those who will try to tell up down is up, and up is down. Don't listen. The spirit of anti-Christ is alive and clearly evident in the pro-death society, even among those who might call themselves a generic Christian or even a Catholic Christian.

They are coming out of the woodwork aren't they! I am sure I'm not the only one who has noticed the large influx of new members who basically regurgitate the same erroneous information and the same erroneous arguments as to why it is okay for a Catholic to vote for Obama.

MDK · #**491** Nov 3, '08, 1:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy5

A CHRISTIAN DEFENSE OF OBAMA

As always, neither candidate meets the qualifications that most of us have in mind. We usually end up voting for the one who is least offense.

I will vote for Obama because of my faith. Here are three of many reasons - briefly stated.

1. The election of Obama will electrify the world and will strengthen our position considerably against Islamic terrorism by weakening the influence of bin Laden & Co among Muslims and by increasing the trust of our allies and others in the policies and general wisdom of the USA. At the moment, most of the world regards us as gun-happy.

2. Obama had the sense to oppose the foolish and costly war in Iraq and recognized that our enemy was in the mountains and Afghanistan and neighboring Pakistan. McCain still declares that the invasion of Iraq was justified. Obama will go after bin Laden, but will also emphasize negotiation and, like Jesus, be ready to sit down with sinners. I trust God to bless his efforts. McCain and Palin, in contrast, appear too attached to military solutions, while I agree with Christ re peacemakers in his sermon on the mount.

3. The election of Obama will go a long way toward ending the racial chasm that has been so injurious for centuries in America. It will serve as a balm among African-Americans and Obama will become an influential and urgent role model for black men. Obama would be a well-spoken, moderate biracial president and will eclipse such racial exploiters as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

I have regarded myself as a lifelong Republican, but far more important, a would-be faithful disciple of Christ. We need to be people of deeper trust in the ideology of Jesus and not in the sinister political machinations of the world.

As for the abortion issue, both parties are unlikely to make it a crime. The goal must be to make abortions rarer and rarer. I believe this is as likely, perhaps more likely, with Obama as with McCain.

I also have trouble with McCain unfaithfulness to his first wife and his remarriage to the richest woman in Arizona. And as for Palin, she makes a wonderful cheerleader, but she scares me. That whole end-times theology of version of Christianity with which she has been associated is off the wall and dangerous.

Well, since you're a Protestant, it's no surprise you would believe that you, privately are smarter than those God sent into the world to continue His mission... so being spectacularly misguided as you show above is not surprising.

No person who has the true Spirit of Christ in them, has a developed conscience, and is informed, will support the pro-death candidacy of 0bama. The spirit of anti-Christ is alive in the 0bama campaign and this spirit of deceit has drawn many who are weak into its fog. Support of 0bama's pro-death platform is not justifiable.

As for me, I'll stay in communion with the Pope and Magisterium, in line with what Christ asks us to do. I will be able to look my Bishop in the eyes and not be ashamed, knowing that I have done what the Vicar of Christ has asked us to do.

KevinHealyCT · #**492** Nov 3, '08, 1:38 pm

I found a Who's Prolife voter guide and thought I would post it on this thread...

It's set to CT but can be changed to any state, shows house, senate, etc...

http://afanet.capwiz.com/election/guide/ct

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.lifenews.com/2008prolifevotersguide.html

Kevin

MDK · #**493** Nov 3, '08, 1:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by estesbob

They are coming out of the woodwork aren't they! I am sure I'm not the only one who has noticed the large influx of new members who basically regurgitate the same erroneous information and the same erroneous arguments as to why it is okay for a Catholic to vote for Obama.

Yep. The Obamatrons. I can tell who they are. The Holy Spirit is not in them. The spirit of deceit is in them, driving them... a slavery to sin. They copy and paste the same talking points.

MDK · #**494** Nov 3, '08, 1:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinHealyCT

I found a Who's Prolife voter guide and thought I would post it on this thread...

It's set to CT but can be changed to any state, shows house, senate, etc...

http://afanet.capwiz.com/election/guide/ct

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.lifenews.com/2008prolifevotersguide.html

Kevin

Much of that guide is nothing more than the parties talking points, but here is one from each, regarding abortion which for each candidate came under different headings.

OBAMA:
Listed under "Womens' Issues" (nothing titled Sanctity of Life - Supports a Woman's Right to Choose

Barack Obama understands that abortion is a divisive issue, and respects those who disagree with him. However, he has been a consistent champion of reproductive choice and will make preserving women's rights under Roe v. Wade a priority as President. He opposes any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in that case.

McCAIN:
Listed under "Sanctity of Life" (nothing under Womens' Issues) - Overturning Roe v. Wade

"John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench.

Constitutional balance would be restored by the reversal of Roe v. Wade, returning the abortion question to the individual states. The difficult issue of abortion should not be decided by judicial fiat.

However, the reversal of Roe v. Wade represents only one step in the long path toward ending abortion. Once the question is returned to the states, the fight for life will be one of courage and compassion - the courage of a pregnant mother to bring her child into the world and the compassion of civil society to meet her needs and those of her newborn baby. The pro-life movement has done tremendous work in building and reinforcing the infrastructure of civil society by strengthening faith-based, community, and neighborhood organizations that provide critical services to pregnant mothers in need. This work must continue and government must find new ways to empower and strengthen these armies of compassion. These important groups can help build the consensus necessary to end abortion at the state level. As John McCain has publicly noted, "At its core, abortion is a human tragedy. To effect meaningful change, we must engage the debate at a human level."

mary bobo · #**495** Nov 3, '08, 1:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by estesbob

They are coming out of the woodwork aren't they! I am sure I'm not the only one who has noticed the large influx of new members who basically regurgitate the same erroneous information and the same erroneous arguments as to why it is okay for a Catholic to vote for Obama.

Hopefully they will disappear when the election is over.