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  #211  
Old Apr 2, '09, 11:33 am
Bass Bass is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

I think God will judge your motives not the act itself. but first let me clarify, besides being gorse anal sex even between husband and wife is a grave sin...okay!

now, why do I think the motive is more to worry about than the act? well for example vaginal sex between husband and wife is good and holy, but the same act outside marriage is a sin. killing for revenge is a sin, but the same act for defending one's self or loved ones is not a sin. steeling for selfish reasons is a sin, but steeling to feed your dying children from hunger is not a sin....do you see where I am going with this? its not the act but rather the motive. Any sex between husband and wife for the purpose of preventing pregnancy is a sin, but to pleasure one another without the intentions of preventing pregnancy is not a sin in my opinion.

I don't want to use me as an example to make a point because I don’t want to reveal my identity, but because I am not the only one who has ten children, then I can safely say, I have ten children, and when my wife and I make love we only think of the beauty and the holiness of sex, and never worry about if we get pregnant or not.

BTW, some of you should read Solomon, talk about lust. Holy cow, even I blushed when I read his writings…
  #212  
Old Apr 2, '09, 1:38 pm
baylee baylee is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

From Wikipedia:

Following this (the Imprimatur), some works may also include the following statement:

"The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free of doctrinal or moral error. No implication is contained therein that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur agree with the content, opinions or statements expressed."

While at first glance this statement might seem contradictory, it indicates the purpose of the imprimatur: theologians and other writers are free to discuss various theories, ideas, approaches, or positions on theological topics - even if the bishop does not agree with the author's positions - provided they do not actually harm Catholic faith or morals. Within Catholic doctrine, therefore, a breadth of possible opinions may be freely discussed.

The above is the case with West's book.
  #213  
Old Apr 2, '09, 1:48 pm
Methodi Methodi is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella View Post
You're saying that oral and/or manual stimulation of each other's genitals prior to normal intercourse is sinful, which again makes you the only person I have ever seen on CA or anywhere else who says this. The only person.

So either you are wrong, or all of the other faithful apologists here on CA have been giving out wrong information.
I dont think oral sex or anal intercourse is natural, married or not
  #214  
Old Apr 2, '09, 2:58 pm
Suzle Suzle is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magdelaine View Post
I recommend Theology of the Body for Beginners for an intro to drop dead gorgeous theology. Or you can try Holy Sex!: A Catholic Guide to Toe-Curling, Mind-Blowing, Infallible Loving (Paperback).Ya gotta giggle at the title!
Thanks for that!!!
  #215  
Old Apr 2, '09, 7:52 pm
Ella Ella is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methodi View Post
I dont think oral sex or anal intercourse is natural, married or not
The Church does not teach that oral stimulation before intercourse is sinful.
  #216  
Old Apr 2, '09, 8:09 pm
Spirithound Spirithound is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella View Post
You're saying that oral and/or manual stimulation of each other's genitals prior to normal intercourse is sinful, which again makes you the only person I have ever seen on CA or anywhere else who says this. The only person.

So either you are wrong, or all of the other faithful apologists here on CA have been giving out wrong information.
Argumentum ad populum.

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  #217  
Old Apr 2, '09, 8:33 pm
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Verbum Caro Verbum Caro is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
Very simply, if a sexual act is intrinsically evil and therefore always immoral
Mr. Conte,

Perhaps it might help if you explain your argument why, say, manual stimulation is intrinsically evil.

It seems to me that the proponents (or perhaps "defenders"?) of it aren't necessarily misunderstanding principles of moral theology regarding intrinsically evil acts, but rather, would hold that the physical act of manual stimulation either a)is not intrinsically evil and/or b) does not sufficiently describe the moral object of the act (i.e. there are other elements involved, over and above the physical descriptor "manual stimulation".)

Thanks in advance,
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  #218  
Old Apr 3, '09, 5:28 am
Methodi Methodi is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella View Post
The Church does not teach that oral stimulation before intercourse is sinful.
Well, to my thinking, any DEVOUT Catholic wouldnt do that, but there aren`t many devout catholics
  #219  
Old Apr 3, '09, 6:15 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella View Post
You're saying that oral and/or manual stimulation of each other's genitals prior to normal intercourse is sinful, which again makes you the only person I have ever seen on CA or anywhere else who says this. The only person.
These so-called acts of foreplay or stimulation are merely non-consumated acts of masturbation or sodomy. The end of natural marital relations does not justify any means at all.

The Church definitively teaches as a required belief on morality that the end does not justify the means (this is in CCC and Veritatis Splendor). Now foreplay is a means to the end of natural marital relations. Therefore, it is obvious from Church teaching that an act does not become moral merely by being used as a means to the end of natural marital relations. All persons who claim that a particular sexual act is immoral when done by itself, but moral when used as a type of foreplay to prepare for the marital act are inherently claiming that the end justifies the means.

Suppose that a husband beats his wife as a type of foreplay. It is immoral for a husband to beat his wife, and it remains immoral when that act is followed by another moral act, such as natural marital relations.

Supppose that a husband and wife decide to makeout with another couple as a way for them to prepare for natural marital relations. Again, the end does not justify the means.

Suppose that a husband and wife decide to do any immoral act as a type of foreplay. The same act is just as immoral by itself as when it is followed by natural marital relations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella View Post
So either you are wrong, or all of the other faithful apologists here on CA have been giving out wrong information.
This is a type of ad hominem argument.

Also, other members at CA have voiced their agreement that unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always immoral.

Other persons who agree outside of CA, such as John Salza:
In fact, there are some proponents of TB who actually profess that non-consummated sodomy – an unnatural act and one of the four mortal sins which cry to heaven for God’s vengeance - is a permissible prelude to “lovemaking.”
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sexuality_qa.html#tob

Also, in my own discussion group, all the members agree that unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always immoral, even within marriage.
http://catholicplanet.net/forum/show...78&postcount=2
  #220  
Old Apr 3, '09, 6:18 am
TLM08 TLM08 is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methodi View Post
Well, to my thinking, any DEVOUT Catholic wouldnt do that, but there aren`t many devout catholics

In order to remain in "devout" standing, all fun must be removed from a night of sex.... right? Suppose a catholic couple is most effective displaying their love for each other by doing dishes, cleaning the house, earning a paycheck, caring for children, watching a movie together, opening a door, being kind and bringing home a single rose once a week for fifty years? Don't these acts of love and sacrifice between a man and wife speak volumes more than what goes on in the bedroom? Sex is supposed to be alive, vibrant, exciting, hot, adventurous, fun and yes..... even a little naughty.


Yet at the same time, sex is a very serious matter. God has got to be shaking his head at what modern culture on one side and theologians on the other, have done to one of his most incredible ideas which is SEX! I think there are a LOT of people in these forums that are consumed with guilt with even the thought of experiencing sexual excitement. The pleasure in your loins was a gift from God. In return he would like a few more children for his kingdom, and little show of gratitude from us. After a night of great (or even not so great) sex, I like to sit at my kitchen table in the morning sipping my coffee and thank him in my mind for all the gifts he has given us.

The sexual revolution of the sixties was born out of religious sexual repression, ignorance and fear of bygone eras. Ancient theologians had virtually no understanding of human sexuality. However, they correctly knew that it had to be controlled. This religious repression of human sexuality is alive and well today. The exception is that now, many are trying to turn sex into a religious experience of worship by inviting God to sit in the bedroom to supervise the act, even becoming one with him! I'm sorry, but the whole idea of that is very creepy. The morning meditation over coffee is a much more appropriate time for worship and one-ness with God.


Unfortunately the sexual revolution was an overreaction and went way too far and gave birth to another explosion of promiscuity, abortion and a whole host of other social ills. History has experienced these ills before. Sexual immorality was not invented in the 1960s!

Sex belongs behind the closed bedroom doors of a man and wife with the theologians staying out of it.


Last edited by TLM08; Apr 3, '09 at 6:32 am.
  #221  
Old Apr 3, '09, 6:36 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
I cannot disagree that "unnatural sexual acts" are immoral and sinful. The question is: what is "unnatural", "immoral" and "sinful"? I get the feeling that you are attempting to pass off your own narrow and prudish interpretations of Church teaching as the official word when they are not.
See this article for a detailed look at the teaching of Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium on this topic:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/CCSE/marriage-bed.htm

But the numerous persons who argue against what I am saying do not present any kind of theological argument, nor can they cite any source in Tradition, Scripture, or the Magisterium that states that the end of natural marital relations justifies all acts used as foreplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
But stimulation of each other’s genitals to the point of climax apart from an act of normal intercourse is nothing other than mutual masturbation. There’s no gift of self, no marital communion taking place at all. Nor are such acts open to conception.
First, West admits that such acts are intrinsically evil, for we all know that masturbation is intrinsically evil and therefore always immoral. Then he goes on to claim that an intrinsically evil act is justified in some circumstances, such as when the wife does not reach climax during natural marital relations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
if the wife, despite their sincere efforts, was unable to climax during penetration, it may well be the loving thing for the husband to stimulate her to climax thereafter (if she so desired). In this case, such stimulation is not inherently masturbatory since it is within the context of a completed act of intercourse.”
He makes the baseless claim that the act is not inherently masturbatory (i.e. not intrinsically evil), but in effect he is claiming that a circumstance can make an intrinsically evil act become moral. This is contrary to the clear and definitive teaching of Veritatis Splendor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
it’s not inherently wrong if the wife climaxes as a result of oral stimulation, so long as it’s within the context fo a completed act of intercourse.”
The context of an intrinsically evil act cannot justify that act.

“It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1753-1756).

The moral object of an act whereby the husband stimulates his wife to climax (other than by natural marital relations) remains unchanged by whether or not the spouses engaged in natural marital relations before or after the act.

But if you think that a husband can commit such acts on his wife after natural marital relations, what length of time must separate the two acts? A minute, an hour, a day, a month? How is it that you admit such acts are intrinsically evil by themselves (as West also admits), yet they are justified within a certain time frame before or after natural marital relations? It is absurd to claim that an act is evil except when done within a certain number of minutes or hours before or after another moral act.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
Imprimatur: Most Rev. Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap.
Archbishop of Denver
Many books have the imprimatur, but contain various doctrinal errors on faith or morals.
Again, all of the arguments people present to me are not theological arguments, but rather are arguments based on who said something. Such arguments ignore the truth or falsehood of what is being said.
  #222  
Old Apr 3, '09, 6:38 am
baylee baylee is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLM08 View Post
After a night of great (or even not so great) sex, I like to sit at my kitchen table in the morning sipping my coffee and thank him in my mind for all the gifts he has given us.
LOL!
  #223  
Old Apr 3, '09, 6:40 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLM08 View Post
Sex is supposed to be alive, vibrant, exciting, hot, adventurous, fun and yes..... even a little naughty.

The pleasure in your loins was a gift from God.

Ancient theologians had virtually no understanding of human sexuality.

The exception is that now, many are trying to turn sex into a religious experience of worship by inviting God to sit in the bedroom to supervise the act, even becoming one with him!

Sex belongs behind the closed bedroom doors of a man and wife with the theologians staying out of it.
The moral law is universal. There are no exceptions to the moral law. And the moral law is based on the goodness of God. So the marital bedroom should not be a place where God and moral theology are not welcome. God is not everywhere except the bedroom.

[Hebrews]
{13:4} May marriage be honorable in every way, and may the marriage bed be immaculate. For God will judge fornicators and adulterers.
  #224  
Old Apr 3, '09, 6:46 am
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Randy Carson Randy Carson is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methodi View Post
I dont think oral sex or anal intercourse is natural, married or not
And you are entitled to your personal opinions.

However, as the snippets from Christopher West indicate, oral sex is permissable in the proper context. Anal sex, however, is always wrong.
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  #225  
Old Apr 3, '09, 6:46 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: Mortal Sin in the Marriage Bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass View Post
I think God will judge your motives not the act itself.
This claim contradicts the definitive teaching of the Magisterium on morality in CCC and in Veritatis Splendor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass View Post
well for example vaginal sex between husband and wife is good and holy, but the same act outside marriage is a sin.
Natural marital relations is moral, but the same natural sexual act outside of marriage is intrinsically evil because the act itself with its moral object is defined by the marriage relationship. In other words extra-marital sex is immoral precisely because it is extra-marital. So when the same sexual act is done within marriage, it is moral because it is no longer extra-marital

But unnatural sexual acts, whether consummated or non-consummated, are intrinsically evil because the moral object of the act is defined by the fact that the act is unnatural. Therefore, the same unnatural act remains unnatural and so remains immoral within marriage. The moral object of the act is also not changed when the unnatural act is done before, during, or after natural marital relations.
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