KJV Bible and Catholics

[VinnyDee78]

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

The KJV list Ezra and Nehemiah in that order. The D-R list them as I and II Esdras. I and II in the KJV Apocrypha is III and IV Catholic Apocrypha

I have to get this right before I publish. Tomorrow I will begin a verse by verse examination of the books we have been discussing D-R with my KJV. Great stuff - I am glad I joined this group.

Will pick up on this again in the morning...

Once I was asking for leave and the officer granting me it said, "You're Mormon? I thought you were Italian!???"

My Best - Vinny (yes the Mormon, but Vinny will do just fine)

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Jesus is the Christ

[tobinatorstark]

Originally Posted by VinnyDee78

I am not sure I follow you here. Please take a step back and give me your definition of grace. If she had to be full of it, than what was it. And can you also tell me where you derive her calling to lead people to Christ - was it by virtue of her participation in the plan or was there some scripture you had in mind here.

I looked at the thread on Hail, full of grace and could spend a lifetime deciphering all of the dialog on the subject. the KJV has Luke 1: 28 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

But to me, both interpretations adequately describes Mary and her earthly role as mother of the Christ child - she was both favored and full of grace (perhaps that's why they picked that Greek word). I prefer the full of grace interpretation because grace is much more than an unmerited gift from God - it is actually something more tangible to me.

I attend a multi-denominational Bible study group on Wednesday mornings with about ten good men, 6 Baptists, 2 Presbyterians, 2 Catholics and 1 Latter-day Saints (maybe 2 now). We all share a thirst for understanding the more important things in life. When I spoke openly at one meeting about the Apocrypha, my 2 Catholic friends went home and came back the following week loaded for bear. I make better Catholics out of Catholics.

Also - I think you might find this a little amusing... one week the topic was the method of baptism. The Baptists contended (in love)for the immersion method, while the Catholic position was okay with the sprinkling. When the dust settled, they asked me what the Latter-day Saint position was on the subject. First I let them know I was raised Catholic, then converted to Later-day Saint, so I had both methods and was covered regardless of who was right.

I did see a noticeable wave of disbelief pass through the group when I told them when our early church leadership faced this question we just asked and a resurrected John the Baptist showed us how to do it. The Baptist Minister in our group was happy to hear it was by full immersion, and I did not get tarred and feathered for saying it.

I enjoy the dialog and hope to contribute without preaching.

Well as Catholics we believe Mary was born without original sin. Grace isn't earned but merited. Grace is avoiding sin and obtaining santification. All of us are called to do God's will. Each have our part. Because Mary avoided sin and had obtained sanctification by obeying God's law and doing his will. God has a special plan for each of us. In Marian appariations Mary has stated to people "Lead them back to my Son", "Lead them home". Marian issues is probably my weakest area in being a Catholic. I hope this helps some.

[tobinatorstark]

Originally Posted by requiemaeturnum

Woe to you Rome, when Your children shun those who defend You.

How is that a hate site? You want a hate site? www.thepopeinred.com

Mormon (sorry I am editing this and I forgot your username), I prefer to read the Holy Bible in Latin along side the Douay Rheims translations. http://www.baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=50

I never stated that the site is a hate site. I just stated it being full of filth in same manor that that www.jesus-is-lord is towards Catholics. The site is disrespectful towards Protestants. Yes there are a lot of false doctrine out there as well, but condemning other Christians and condemning other translation because it isn't word for word with your agreed translation is wrong too. The webmaster of that site should be ashamed of himself. There are some factual statements the rest is just opinionated filth. I am a Catholic and not Mormon. I read the Douay-Rheims and have gotten the most out it. I don't agree 100% with the KJV because its contents do reflect Protestant doctrine, but going out and bashing them and and condemning them is just plain disrespectful. It is alright to explain a Catholic point of view or in a Protestant site a Protestant point of view. This site as Catholic severely offends me that people feel the need to condemn others and make false accusations to make them feel bad. If we can't accept a Christian for reading a Bible and loving God with all his heart without condemning him then we really need to be going to confession quite often. Also what are your opinions on other Catholic Bibles??

[requiemaeturnum]

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

I never stated that the site is a hate site. I just stated it being full of filth in same manor that that www.jesus-is-lord is towards Catholics. The site is disrespectful towards Protestants. Yes there are a lot of false doctrine out there as well, but condemning other Christians and condemning other translation because it isn't word for word with your agreed translation is wrong too. The webmaster of that site should be ashamed of himself. There are some factual statements the rest is just opinionated filth. I am a Catholic and not Mormon. I read the Douay-Rheims and have gotten the most out it. I don't agree 100% with the KJV because its contents do reflect Protestant doctrine, but going out and bashing them and and condemning them is just plain disrespectful. It is alright to explain a Catholic point of view or in a Protestant site a Protestant point of view. This site as Catholic severely offends me that people feel the need to condemn others and make false accusations to make them feel bad. If we can't accept a Christian for reading a Bible and loving God with all his heart without condemning him then we really need to be going to confession quite often. Also what are your opinions on other Catholic Bibles??

You know what? I am a SSPXer and I do not even own a Douay Rheims. I read off the website of the Vatican. http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/..._index_lt.html

or www.drbo.com

Or I read the Bible in my native Vietnamese or English when I have no internet access.

[tobinatorstark]

Originally Posted by requiemaeturnum

You know what? I am a SSPXer and I do not even own a Douay Rheims. I read off the website of the Vatican. http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/..._index_lt.html

or www.drbo.com

Or I read the Bible in my native Vietnamese or English when I have no internet access.

You still haven't answered my question on what proof King James I molested his cousin. Since you are involved with the SSPX, please explain why the SSPX is in schism with Rome or why it isn't? On what authority does one have condemn another religion and rebuke it as the site you provided? If you were Protestant what version of the Bible would you be reading? The KJV does show some Protestantism in it, but overall it is an accurate translation. Again I don't agree 100% with the Protestant doctrine but that doesn't give any right to condemn them

[requiemaeturnum]

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

You still haven't answered my question on what proof King James I molested his cousin. Since you are involved with the SSPX, please explain why the SSPX is in schism with Rome or why it isn't? On what authority does one have condemn another religion and rebuke it as the site you provided? If you were Protestant what version of the Bible would you be reading? The KJV does show some Protestantism in it, but overall it is an accurate translation. Again I don't agree 100% with the Protestant doctrine but that doesn't give any right to condemn them

I was actually quoting a friend of mine about the KJV, but there is proof that King James was an adulterer and a sodomite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona...s_I_of_England

Look at the references at the bottom (wikipedia is actually fairly accurate contrary to popular belief)

What do you mean? Are you saying we should allow heretics and infidels spread their lies?

Well, about the FSSPX, this topic has been turned over more times than the wheatfields of Kansas, as one of my friends puts it. Look at the FAQ section on www.sspx.org.

[tobinatorstark]

Originally Posted by requiemaeturnum

I was actually quoting a friend of mine about the KJV, but there is proof that King James was an adulterer and a sodomite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona...s_I_of_England

Look at the references at the bottom (wikipedia is actually fairly accurate contrary to popular belief)

What do you mean? Are you saying we should allow heretics and infidels spread their lies?

Well, about the FSSPX, this topic has been turned over more times than the wheatfields of Kansas, as one of my friends puts it. Look at the FAQ section on www.sspx.org.

If memory serves me right that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for consecrating 4 bishops without the approve from the Pope. That means that the consecration was invalid right? Those that were ordained by those 4 consecrated bishops would also be invalid right? BTW way you still never answered what gives one the authority to condemn people and Bible translations? And are you implying if you aren't Catholic that you are a heretic or an infidel???? I am out for the night. Look forward to your response though

[bpbasilphx]

**That means that the consecration was invalid right? **

Wrong.

They were VALID, but illicit, aka irregular.

[requiemaeturnum]

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

If memory serves me right that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for consecrating 4 bishops without the approve from the Pope. That means that the consecration was invalid right? Those that were ordained by those 4 consecrated bishops would also be invalid right? BTW way you still never answered what gives one the authority to condemn people and Bible translations? And are you implying if you aren't Catholic that you are a heretic or an infidel???? I am out for the night. Look forward to your response though

I answered your question.

Who gives you or I gives us the right to condemn people and Bible translations? God!!

"Not to oppose error is to support it, not to defend the truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can, is no less a sin then to encourage them"
- Pope St. Felix III

[VinnyDee78]

Originally Posted by bpbasilphx

**That means that the consecration was invalid right? **

Wrong.

They were VALID, but illicit, aka irregular.

This is not my fight, but seems a bit of an odd reply. If the Catholic church follows a chain of authority and it was broken, then it is broken. The authority to set them apart appears to have been broken and excommunication was the result of his trying to change rules, procedures and protocol and therefore they were indeed invalid.

a parallel story (I'll have to locate the dialog in my KJV )

I believe there were a number of baptisms performed in the NT times that were not condemned by Christ but they were simply rebaptized by one in authority to do so. That implies to me that the first was out of line with protocol, though intentions were pure I am sure, and that their initial baptism was of no efficacy.

Speaking on authority - does the Catholic church publish that line of authority that they believe has been preserved through the ages?

[VinnyDee78]

Originally Posted by requiemaeturnum

Who gives you or I gives us the right to condemn people and Bible translations? God!!

"Not to oppose error is to support it, not to defend the truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can, is no less a sin then to encourage them"
- Pope St. Felix III

"Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it." 1 Pet. 3: 11

I suspect the Pope's quote is taken a little out of context for liscence to slam at will. I see this same liscence in the Evangelical community from time to time (maybe a little more often than that actually) but I bet the Pope's dialog was much more comprehensive.

My Dad stayed a Catholic (and he looked around too) because he said it was the only church he could find that didn't slam other churches...

I think it is great that you feel zealous in this matter, but let me suggest that while you think 'they' whomever 'they are' are wrong, offending them out of the gate will never win, prove, defend, promote, convince, or convert a single soul.

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Prov. 18:19

Quoting a friend never works either.

My Respect - Vinny

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All quotes are from the KJV until I read the D-R version

[VinnyDee78]

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

Well as Catholics we believe Mary was born without original sin.

I did not know this. While Latter-day Saints do not believe in original sin, if you are saying Mary was not human with the fallen nature of a human, then I do not think the Catholic position is correct (my opinion).

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

Grace isn't earned but merited.

This is the first time I have heard that grace is merited - Websters disagrees and everyone I have discussed this with, so I am interested to know how it is merited?

Don't assume I agree or disagree - My thesis is that if we follow correct principles, grace is merited... or in other words the natural consequence/promise for living said principles.

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

Grace is avoiding sin and obtaining sanctification.

I believe you are not too far off here - grace will help us avoid sin and we know that we are saved by grace, so grace does play an important role in our sanctification process. But how is the real question?

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

All of us are called to do God's will. Each have our part. [and] God has a special plan for each of us.

I agree in principle. It is for each of us to seek that will and the part we are to play. The question is what is that plan? I introduced the concept of a plan to our Bible study and I was amazed to be asked - What Plan?

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

Because Mary avoided sin and had obtained sanctification by obeying God's law and doing his will.

This is the same for all of us. Mary I am sure was sanctified and received a fullness of grace (the Greek definition in the other thread comes very close to what I am thinking), just as we can receive a fullness... just as Christ did (our great exemplar) received grace for grace (Mary was not above Him). Christ showed us the way, the process and it is no different for any human being, neither do I believe it was any different for Mary. (hope this makes sense and doesn't offend anyone.) So I would ask again (in love) - what is this grace and how are we saved by it?

Originally Posted by tobinatorstark

Marian appariations Mary has stated to people "Lead them back to my Son", "Lead them home". Marian issues is probably my weakest area in being a Catholic. I hope this helps some.

I am less familiar with what this is... is it in scripture somewhere?

What a great Thanksgiving discussion - thankful for the grace that God so fully proffers me.

Just Vinny

[requiemaeturnum]

Originally Posted by VinnyDee78

"Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it." 1 Pet. 3: 11

I suspect the Pope's quote is taken a little out of context for liscence to slam at will. I see this same liscence in the Evangelical community from time to time (maybe a little more often than that actually) but I bet the Pope's dialog was much more comprehensive.

My Dad stayed a Catholic (and he looked around too) because he said it was the only church he could find that didn't slam other churches...

I think it is great that you feel zealous in this matter, but let me suggest that while you think 'they' whomever 'they are' are wrong, offending them out of the gate will never win, prove, defend, promote, convince, or convert a single soul.

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." Prov. 18:19

Quoting a friend never works either.

My Respect - Vinny

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All quotes are from the KJV until I read the D-R version

Actually no, I quoted exactly what Saint Felix III said- I did not take it out of any context.

Plus, I was quoting my friend because he was very eloquent in describing the KJV!!
And I am sorry you converted to a heresy like Mormonism- may I ask why you did so in the first place?

[VinnyDee78]

Originally Posted by requiemaeturnum

Actually no, I quoted exactly what Saint Felix III said- I did not take it out of any context.

What i mean by taking it out of context to justify behavior is that it was probably a single line in a sermon or lecture that had a lot more context. I don't have that speech but supect the good Pope talked about the first and second commandments, love of God and fellowman, recommended appraoches, etc.

Originally Posted by requiemaeturnum

And I am sorry you converted to a heresy like Mormonism- may I ask why you did so in the first place?

Lots of reasons, but perhaps most of all it was the Spirit of it...

Please define heresy.

Vinny

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"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isa. 5: 20

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by VinnyDee78

Interesting perspective. Now I know why they don't worry about me.

And my friend, I would be interested in knowing why you believe the Catholic Church is the true church. Perhaps there is another thread for that in this forum. I am interested in knowing - how you know.

Thanks for the reference site regarding the Apocrypha questions. It didn't open for me this go around will try again later. Another questions - Are there any Born Again Catholics?

My Best - Vinny

RE: Post #28
Well Vinny, I’ll try to condense it. I was raised Catholic and attended all Catholic Schools but once I became an “adult” I drifted off in my own direction. At age 21 I went into law enforcement and worked in many specialized units of municipal and later federal agencies receiving appropriate training in each based on specialty which allowed for a very diversified background in training and life experiences. I was a highly respected professional investigator and agent in my areas and late in my career I went private and trained investigators and many other professionals in specialized areas of interest through my own agency. But during those years I developed my own “religious beliefs” based on my opinions in opposition to certain Catholic teachings and those I adopted based on my own beliefs, primary that popular philosophy that “…all that mattered to God was what was in your heart and you do the best you can, that it makes no difference what faith you belong to…” that kind of thing. I was separated from the Catholic Church for 0ver 25 years.

After several life events took place that led me to question not having God in my life but still having opinions adverse to the Catholic Church, I started looking at other Christian denominations and non-denominational forms of worship. What a hodgepodge of Bible versions and interpretations I found. I believed in Christ but that was as far as it went at that point and a Catholic priest told me I was “too analytical” and it was interfering with my faith. I was sure I was analytical which is what made me so successful in my profession, it was necessary to perform an accurate investigation, but I didn’t accept being “Too Analytical”. What I had to make sure of for myself is that if I was going to be in a Church, I had to believe it to be the True Church, so I stepped back and researched Christianity with the tools of my profession both from recent days to its origin, then from it’s origin to today. I researched every point that came up in any form of question and that led directly to the Catholic Church which led me to use the Bible of the Catholic Church along with many other resources. I also realized how much my adoption of my own beliefs when I was younger was no different than those who founded other Christian faiths, which explained in part why there are so many. In studying scripture I began with the New Testament and went backward to the Old Testament. In doing it that way I was able to better put together the links in the prophecies of the coming of the messiah to the Life of Jesus. To simplify my answer to you, I analytically performed my own investigation over more than five years and without doubt proved to myself the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ and that there are more than enough assertions by Christ himself to solidify that if you are to believe in Jesus, you have to believe in His Word and His word is a covenant that part of which asserted His Church would never fail even with the heresies and corruption that would infest her at times. That those who persevered in her would be saved by His word. In all this study and research I became ashamed of myself over those issues I disagreed with in the teachings of the Catholic Faith for so many years. I realized those teachings where instructed by Jesus to the apostles and carried on through the Sacred Tradition and Scripture. I also realized the biggest problem that causes some Catholics to be distant or weak in the practice of their faith is unintentional ignorance by way of a lack of study and knowledge in the Word of God. Some Catholics seem to think if they go through catholic school or CCD that once finished, they know what they are suppose to know, maybe all there is to know. They must realize it is every person’s responsibility to seek knowledge of God, which in turn will lead to love, and devotion to Him. I continue to study and learn and can’t get enough knowledge of Him to get as close to Him as I wish to be. That is how much I have learned to love Him and devote myself to Him. I only regret all the years I lost not learning sooner.