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  #1  
Old Nov 8, '08, 6:12 pm
pac pac is offline
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Default What's the difference between religious order priests and Diocesan priests?

Whats the difference between religious order priests and Diocesan priests??
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  #2  
Old Nov 8, '08, 7:36 pm
His little1 His little1 is offline
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Default Re: Differnce

I believe one part is their vows (poverty or not for example).
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  #3  
Old Nov 9, '08, 8:51 am
Verbum Verbum is offline
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Default Re: Differnce

Hi Pac,

Diocesan priests take no vows, except (the implicit) vow of chastity. They owe obedince to their bishop in matters relating to their ministry but not in other matters. For example, a bishop could not forbid his priests to drink or smoke.

A religious priest takes the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. The vow of poverty means that the person cannot acquire or dispose of anything except as their superior decides. Chastity means that they cannot marry and must, course, observe chastity as celibates. Obedience means that they must submit to the orders of their superiors as to their occupation, their place of living, their schedule and obey the rules and regulations of their order or congregation.

Religious normally live together as a community; They follow a pre-determined schedule, eat together, pray together, play together.

At the request of the bishops, many religious priests do parish work, either out of their institution or in a parish that has been entrusted to their order or congregation. In this work they remain subject to their rule and to their superiors, except as to the parish ministry, where they follow the directives of the bishop.

It is good for Catholics to understand these distinction because religious priests are often embarassed by expensive gifts they receive. Living a community life and subject to the vow of poverty, the gifts they receive are subject to the decision of their superiors. They may decide that the gift must be shared or given to a person who needs it more. In case of doubt, one should consult the superior.

The same goes for invitations. the religious priests is not always master of his schedule and may have to ask permission from the superior.

Finally, we must point out that nuns, brothers and lay brothers are also religious and have the same vows.

Does this answer your question?

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Old Nov 9, '08, 6:46 pm
pac pac is offline
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Default Re: Differnce

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Originally Posted by Verbum View Post
Hi Pac,

Diocesan priests take no vows, except (the implicit) vow of chastity. They owe obedince to their bishop in matters relating to their ministry but not in other matters. For example, a bishop could not forbid his priests to drink or smoke.

A religious priest takes the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. The vow of poverty means that the person cannot acquire or dispose of anything except as their superior decides. Chastity means that they cannot marry and must, course, observe chastity as celibates. Obedience means that they must submit to the orders of their superiors as to their occupation, their place of living, their schedule and obey the rules and regulations of their order or congregation.

Religious normally live together as a community; They follow a pre-determined schedule, eat together, pray together, play together.

At the request of the bishops, many religious priests do parish work, either out of their institution or in a parish that has been entrusted to their order or congregation. In this work they remain subject to their rule and to their superiors, except as to the parish ministry, where they follow the directives of the bishop.

It is good for Catholics to understand these distinction because religious priests are often embarassed by expensive gifts they receive. Living a community life and subject to the vow of poverty, the gifts they receive are subject to the decision of their superiors. They may decide that the gift must be shared or given to a person who needs it more. In case of doubt, one should consult the superior.

The same goes for invitations. the religious priests is not always master of his schedule and may have to ask permission from the superior.

Finally, we must point out that nuns, brothers and lay brothers are also religious and have the same vows.

Does this answer your question?

Verbum

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  #5  
Old Nov 10, '08, 8:04 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: Differnce

**A religious priest takes the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.**

Or if a Benedictine, Cistercian, or Carthusian, obedience, stability, and conversion.
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  #6  
Old Aug 20, '10, 10:43 am
budpiano budpiano is offline
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Default Re: What's the difference between religious order priests and Diocesan priests?

What is the implicit vow of chastity? Why is it implicit?
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  #7  
Old Aug 20, '10, 10:59 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Default Re: What's the difference between religious order priests and Diocesan priests?

Quote:
Originally Posted by budpiano View Post
What is the implicit vow of chastity? Why is it implicit?
A diocesen (or secular) priest makes no vows. They make promises of chastity and obedience.
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Old Aug 21, '10, 1:10 pm
budpiano budpiano is offline
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Default Re: What's the difference between religious order priests and Diocesan priests?

So then, what is the difference between a promise and a vow? Has a secular priest sinned if he breaks a promise....say of chastity?
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  #9  
Old Aug 21, '10, 5:03 pm
Saint_Macarius Saint_Macarius is offline
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Default Re: What's the difference between religious order priests and Diocesan priests?

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Originally Posted by budpiano View Post
So then, what is the difference between a promise and a vow? Has a secular priest sinned if he breaks a promise....say of chastity?
Please see CCC paragraph 2102 for a definition of a vow.
To answer your second question, you'll need to more thoroughly define what you mean as "secular priest." If you mean a diocesan priest of the Latin rite in the Catholic Church, then the answer would be yes, if he did not receive permission from his respective episcopate first. This is due to part of his ordination ceremony.
Although the following is not found in all ordination ceremonies it may be useful to explain a particular part of it. Usually after the archdeacon calls forth the deacons to be ordained and before the litany of the saints, the bishop will say "The Fathers decreed that the people also should be consulted..." and will list the duties of the priest (usually saying something along the line of chastity) and then ask all who are present if there are any reasons why the man/men shouldn't be ordained.
Now as to the severity of the sin (mortal or not) would be a more difficult question to answer. That would require certain circumstances that I don't want to list here.
I hope this helps. God bless.
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  #10  
Old Aug 28, '10, 2:23 pm
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JReducation JReducation is offline
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Default Re: What's the difference between religious order priests and Diocesan priests?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint_Macarius View Post
Please see CCC paragraph 2102 for a definition of a vow.
To answer your second question, you'll need to more thoroughly define what you mean as "secular priest." If you mean a diocesan priest of the Latin rite in the Catholic Church, then the answer would be yes, if he did not receive permission from his respective episcopate first. This is due to part of his ordination ceremony.
Although the following is not found in all ordination ceremonies it may be useful to explain a particular part of it. Usually after the archdeacon calls forth the deacons to be ordained and before the litany of the saints, the bishop will say "The Fathers decreed that the people also should be consulted..." and will list the duties of the priest (usually saying something along the line of chastity) and then ask all who are present if there are any reasons why the man/men shouldn't be ordained.
Now as to the severity of the sin (mortal or not) would be a more difficult question to answer. That would require certain circumstances that I don't want to list here.
I hope this helps. God bless.
The ordination rite has been changed too. Today, we do not have an archdeacon. Second, under normal circumstances you do not ordain religioius and secular in the same ceremony, because the ordination of a religious does not include the promises of celibacy and obedience. The religious has already made vows of celibate chastity and obedience to his major superior and his order. The secular candidate must make the promise of celibacy and obedience ot his bishop.

As far as celibacy is concerned, one must understand that there is a big difference between the vow of chasity and the promise of celibacy, even though they overlap. In both cases the man is committed to remaining single. Every person is called to chastity, married or single. Chastity is purity. Not everyone is called to celibacy. Those who make a either a promise or vow of celibacy are called to that by Christ himself and confirmed by the Church.

That being said, the religious vow of chastity includes a little more than celibacy. Not only do we not marry, but we bind ourselves to our communities, unlike secular deacons and priests. They do not bind themselves to anyone. As consecrated religious we vow to live chastity within a brotherhood, replacing our biological bonds to our family with the spiritual family that we are joining. In many communities this is easier to see, because we change our names and we often drop our last names. It is very obvious that we have broken our ties with our parents, siblings and other biological relatives and have become part of a new family. Even in those communities where there is no change of name, you are still entering into a covenant relationship with your new family. A secular cleric does not have this covenant relationship.

In the case of a religious who violates his vow of chastity, not only does he or she sin against the virtue of purity, but he or she also sins against justice. He belongs to this brothers or sisters, depending on the gender. By giving himself to another person, he is giving away that which he has no right to give, his body and his person. This would not be the case for a secular deacon or priest, be he diocesan or a member of a society of priests. He does not belong to his diocese or his society (ie. SSPX. FSSP, Maryknoll, Missionhurst, Opus Dei, Christ the King and so forth). Do you see the bigger picture here?

In addition to the vow of chastity, there are other differences too. Yes, the religious man also makes a vow of obedience. He vows to submit his will to that of the rule and/or constitutions of his religious institute. That rule and constitution determine the authority that his superior has over him. It's more in some religious orders than in others. I know that in the Franciscan tradition we vow to obey St. Francis and his canonically elected successors. Notice the AND. It's not the successors of St. Francis, it's both. We also vow to obey our brothers. The Carmelites do not have a founder. They do not vow to obey a non-existent person. Nor do they vow to obey their brothers. They vow to obey the rule and constitutions. Those documents dictate the authority of the Prior.

Whether you promise to obey a superior or a constitution, the fact remains that your obedience is in all matters, not just your work. The superior or the constitutions may dictate how you dress, whether you can go to a movie, where you live, how you work, what kind of work you do, whether you can have friends outside of the community, whether you can communicate with your biological family, etc. For example, in my community you never set foot outside of the house, not even to get fresh air without asking for permission. This was the kind of obedience that Francis imposed on us. Some superiors do not want to be bothered every five-minutes, so they give blanket permission for certain things. Even though you're not asking for permission to go outside or go to a movie, the fact is that you go without asking, because permission has been given to do so. That's going to vary from superior to superior. Secular priests do not have this kidn of authority over them.
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Old Aug 28, '10, 2:24 pm
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JReducation JReducation is offline
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Default Re: What's the difference between religious order priests and Diocesan priests?

We also make a vow of poverty. This means that we do not own anything individually. In some orders, it means that the order does not own anything as a corporate body. Secular deacons and preists can own property. They can be millionaires. If your father owns Microsoft and you're his heir, guess what!

If you're a religious and your father owns Microsoft, you don't have the right to inherit. You sign away that right before you make final vows. You must assign your inheritance to someone else outside of the community.

In some communities, you're allowed to own a small number of things that are necessary. In others, you own nothing and you literally have nothing. In my community you own nothing. When we are transferred, the only things that we take with us are habits, breviary, bible, toothbrush, a few clothes and any little trinket that the superior has allowed you to take. You can fit it all in the backseat of a car. Oh, by the way, you don't own the car either. Whaterver you had for your use while at that house stays behind for the next guy.

Probably the biggest difference between a religious and a secular is community. A priest who belongs to a religious order is first and foremost a consecrated man. If he's a Dominican, Franciscan, Jesuit, Carmelite, etc, his first duty is to live according to the charism and vision of his order. Being a priest is a vocation within the vocation. If he's a Dominican and a priest, he lives and works as a Dominican. His priestly duties cannot interfere with his obligations to the Dominican way of life and to his Dominican brothers.

For example, Franciscans have many priests. But we are a brotherhood, a family. If a priest has to give up saying a mass or hearing confessions to pray with his brothers, recreate, eat a meal, do manual labor with them, take care of a sick brother, that's what he has to do. When he goes out to perform priestly ministry, he goes out as a brother to the laity.

Another important part of community living is the fact that not all members of a religious community are priests. But they are all equal. This is a concept that is foreign to secular or diocesan priests. They live with other priests. Their boss is a pastor. In a religious community you may be the only priest in the house and your boss may be an accountant or a teacher. But that boss is as much a religious as you are and has authority over you, even though you're a priest. Those brothers who are not priests are your equals, not your subordinates. When making plans, meeting in chapter, discussing goals for the community, you're subordinate to them and they to you. Among the secular clergy their is a "pecking order" that we don't have in religious life, from bottom to top: deacon, priest and bishop. In religious life, we have some religious who are cardinals. When they walk in the door, guess what? They get to do dishes like everyone else.

To give you an example of the difference, I'll share the story of St. Bonaventure. Bonnie was a Franciscan. He was ordained a priest and later elected the superior general. While he was the superior general he was ordained a bishop. To comply with his obligations to the order, he had to run the order and a diocese at the same time. He had been elected by his brothers. Obedience requierd that he fulfill his duties. One day, while washing dishes, a messenger arrived from Rome with his red hat. He had been elevated to Cardinal. Remember, at this point he is the superior general and a bishop; but he's washing dishes. Why? He was not the superior of the house, only the superior of the order. The superior of the house had assigned him to kitchen duties. Interestingly, the superior of the house was not ordained. Bonaventure, being a saint, told the papal emissary to hang the red hat on the branch of a tree, because if he stopped washing dishes to read the pope's letter he would be in big trouble with the superior. He had to finish his work first, before he could take care of the business of the Church.

Today we have someone like Cardinal Sean O'Malley who is a friar. He still has to tow the Franciscan line, even while he governs the Archdiocese of Boston. Cardinal Pell of Australia is a Dominican. He too must tow the Dominican line. The work of the Church their life as religious can never be in conflict. If they are, the Church herself says that they must first attend to thier religious life, then to other things. Religious life also allows them to attend to the work of the Church, within reason. That's going to vary from one order to another. Secular and diocesan clerics do not have these mandates.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
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