Charismatic Mass

TeAmo · #1 Jun 12, '04, 9:19 pm

Hey, can you guys give me your opinion on this scenario?

I go to mass in a community that's largely charismatic. During the Great Amen, the musicians often go into "extended praise;" i.e. for a minute they and the rest of the congregation (and generally the priest as well) will speak in tongues, praise out loud, etc. Then they repeat the Amen again.

I'm uncomfortable with this and suspect that it's not allowed.

arnulf · #2 Jun 13, '04, 4:24 am

I don't think there an anything intrinsically wrong with it, but it would make me feel uncomfortable too, and I would attend mass at a different church.

TeAmo · #3 Jun 14, '04, 8:11 am

I guess mainly I'm just concerned that they're adding stuff to the mass, and I've always been told that that's wrong. Unfortunately, going to another mass isn't really an option for me- I don't have a car and I can walk to this one.

jturnbull · #4 Jun 15, '04, 4:41 am

This is interesting, a few years back we had some Charismatics in our parish , they may still be there, one of them asked me what I thought of the Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church, I told him I would rather not think about it , that ended the discussion. It seems to me that this is an attempt by some Catholics to show our Prostentant brothers and sisters that we are just like them and that we can have our geetars and drums and make music like the rest of them. Oh well this is just how I feel about the Charismatic movement.

Prometheum_x · #5 Jun 15, '04, 1:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeAmo

Hey, can you guys give me your opinion on this scenario?

I go to mass in a community that's largely charismatic. During the Great Amen, the musicians often go into "extended praise;" i.e. for a minute they and the rest of the congregation (and generally the priest as well) will speak in tongues, praise out loud, etc. Then they repeat the Amen again.

I'm uncomfortable with this and suspect that it's not allowed.

TeAmo,

The Norm: I don't think it's allowed.

However, check and see whether they have diocesan approval to make that adaptation. My parish has the Bishop's permission to have an "extended praise" just like yours, only it's after the Gloria. After the time of extended praise, we do the ending of the Gloria again.

HOFseminarian · #6 Feb 12, '06, 11:08 am

I go to a univeristy that is overwhelmingly Charismatic, personaly I believe that the Charismatics are wrong. I just want to know, are they there for exercise and entertainment, or are they there for the real purpose ?

palmas85 · #7 Feb 12, '06, 11:45 am

I know that my hermanito el gusano

won't like this but here goes. Just my opinion mind you, but the entire Catholic charismatic movement is very recent, past forty years or so and came about apparently when some Catholics feeling perhaps that the Protestants had one up on us, requested baptism of the Holy Spirit from a protestant minister, I don't remember if he was Episcopalian or Presbyterian, Well, the baptisms apparently worked and the movement was born. Charismatics claim that they are faithfully echoing the primitive church and that the Holy Spirit, long neglected and apparently maligned in mainstream Catholicism was once again showering his gifts among the faithful.

Whether or not He is actually doing that is, I suspect open to debate, What I think has really happened is this.

A group of disgruntled, forward thinking Catholics, bored to death by the latin prayers and probably badly distracted by clacking rosary beads, this is the 60's remember, saw a really emotional faith filled pentecostal service, they can be very emotional you know, and felt that all the bells and whistles would help a moribound church locked in rigid ritualism and dogma. They neglected the fact that all the bells and whistles, speaking in tongues, prophesyzing, testifying, and other antics common to pentecostal gatherings are there primarily to cover up the fact that they have nothing of any real value to offer anyone except an intense emotional experience. In fact the whole faith filled pentecostal movement itself is very recent, past 100 years or so.

And so today, the charismatics are still among us, even though by their own figures, the movement is no longer growing as it once was.

I hope and pray that they can find whatever it is that they are seeking that the mainstream church apparently doesn't have.

And hermanito gusano, if you read this, as you once told me I am still probably uncircumsized in ears and heart

**Friar David, O.Carm** · #8 Feb 12, '06, 11:50 am

I believe that this is a liturgical abuse.

If it does not appear in the GIRM or in the Missal proper then it is an abuse to add it.

The Missal contains all the prayers and the GIRM contains all the instructions.

The Mass is not a time for private prayers to be added.

Also, speaking in Tongues with out someone providing an interpretation in a gathering is also wrong, at least this is what I learned from my days as a pentecostal.

**puzzleannie** · #9 Feb 12, '06, 11:53 am

in answer to OP's specific question, yes, during the Great Amen is one of the few times this extended praise and praying in tongues is acceptable during Mass. As he noted he is attending a charistmatic parish where this type of workship is understood and respected, not a random Catholic parish where a few charistmatics are disrupting the Mass for everyone else. I would also guess that even at this parish there is only one charismatic style Mass and other Masses are more traditional. there are many variations on the sung Great Amen, and this is one of them.

as for a discussion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an orthordox respected spirituality within the Church that enjoyed the full blessing of our late pope, we already have dozens of threads on the topic, I suggest a search, so that this discussion can stay on topic. Since the OP questions was not "what is your personal opinion of the orthodoxy and sanity of individuals who pray and worship in a charismatic style" I suggest such reflections are off topic.

Marian Carroll · #10 Feb 12, '06, 12:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by puzzleannie

as for a discussion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an orthordox respected spirituality within the Church that enjoyed the full blessing of our late pope, we already have dozens of threads on the topic, I suggest a search, so that this discussion can stay on topic. Since the OP questions was not "what is your personal opinion of the orthodoxy and sanity of individuals who pray and worship in a charismatic style" I suggest such reflections are off topic.

To which the Moderator adds a hearty

palmas85 · #11 Feb 12, '06, 12:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by puzzleannie

in answer to OP's specific question, yes, during the Great Amen is one of the few times this extended praise and praying in tongues is acceptable during Mass. As he noted he is attending a charistmatic parish where this type of workship is understood and respected, not a random Catholic parish where a few charistmatics are disrupting the Mass for everyone else. I would also guess that even at this parish there is only one charismatic style Mass and other Masses are more traditional. there are many variations on the sung Great Amen, and this is one of them.

as for a discussion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, an orthordox respected spirituality within the Church that enjoyed the full blessing of our late pope, we already have dozens of threads on the topic, I suggest a search, so that this discussion can stay on topic. Since the OP questions was not "what is your personal opinion of the orthodoxy and sanity of individuals who pray and worship in a charismatic style" I suggest such reflections are off topic.

Not trying to be a pest or nasty or anything, but could you point me to some official church documentation that allows these practices in the context of a Mass?

palmas85 · #12 Feb 12, '06, 1:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by puzzleannie

in answer to OP's specific question, yes, during the Great Amen is one of the few times this extended praise and praying in tongues is acceptable during Mass. As he noted he is attending a charistmatic parish where this type of workship is understood and respected, not a random Catholic parish where a few charistmatics are disrupting the Mass for everyone else. I would also guess that even at this parish there is only one charismatic style Mass and other Masses are more traditional. there are many variations on the sung Great Amen, and this is one of them..

Does anyone out there have some direction they can point me in to demonstrate that there are places within the Mass where Charismatic practices are specifically allowed? I thought that given the tome of the above quote the GIRM must have something in there that addresses it.

Maybe I'm incompetant, but I really haven't been able to find anything specific anywhere. I did find some tips for presiding at a Charismatic mass that said people could be encouraged at certain times, but that is really about it.

Please help, I want to know where the official guidelines from the church are concerning charismatic activity in the Mass.

MusicMan · #13 Feb 12, '06, 2:53 pm

The General Instruction does not seem to support an "extended praise" for any of the sung responses. It only says that the people make the acclamation, "Amen."

Quote:

79. The chief elements making up the Eucharistic Prayer may be distinguished in this way: h. Final doxology: By which the glorification of God is expressed and is confirmed and concluded by the people's acclamation, Amen.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current...2.shtml#sect3c

Quote:

151. ... At the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest takes the paten with the host and the chalice and elevates them both while alone singing or saying the doxology, Per ipsum (Through him). At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current...4.shtml#sect1a

Quote:

180. At the final doxology of the Eucharistic Prayer, the deacon stands next to the priest, holding the chalice elevated while the priest elevates the paten with the host, until the people have responded with the acclamation, Amen.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current...4.shtml#sect1b

Chapter Nine of the Instruction, which is the section that empowers the Bishops and their Conferences to make adaptations, does not contain a section on the local Bishop allowing a section of "extended praise." http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter9.shtml

Hope this helps.

palmas85 · #14 Feb 12, '06, 5:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicMan

The General Instruction does not seem to support an "extended praise" for any of the sung responses. It only says that the people make the acclamation, "Amen."

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current...2.shtml#sect3c

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current...4.shtml#sect1a

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current...4.shtml#sect1b

Chapter Nine of the Instruction, which is the section that empowers the Bishops and their Conferences to make adaptations, does not contain a section on the local Bishop allowing a section of "extended praise." http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter9.shtml

Hope this helps.

Yeah, I really didn't think there was anything that would officially permit it. Thanks for looking. I actually expected more responses on it though. Oh well, maybe they know deep down it shouldn't be done in the context of the Mass. In Charismatic prayer meetings, sure go for it, but the Mass?? I have a very hard time with that.

**Friar David, O.Carm** · #15 Feb 12, '06, 6:19 pm

This was discussed in another thread sometime ago. In that thread I raised the issue that some people label what they do not like as "abuse" while supporting abuses that they do like.

As I said there and have said many times. Abuse is abuse whether you like it or not. To approve of one abuse just makes the other abuses that much more legitimate.

That is unless someone can show the official Church documents that allow this "extended praise".