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  #1  
Old Dec 8, '08, 4:23 am
cirruslogic cirruslogic is offline
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Default Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

I am from Singapore. We have Life in the Spirit seminars and charismatic rallies and Catholics give praise and worship to the Spirit. But the hymns we sing are those composed by Protestants - Don Moen, Hillsongs.

While I find nothing wrong with the lyrics, I really wish Catholics musicians are able to compose similar music under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic praise and worship music could include words that give worship and praise to the Blessed Sacrament - the Real Presence of Jesus.
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Old Dec 8, '08, 5:11 am
Cat Cat is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

I wrote a lot of songs while I was Protestant (over 40 years).

Now that I've converted (in 2004)), frankly, I'm really scared to write Catholic praise and worship songs or any kind of Catholic songs. I don't like being attacked. I should have tougher skin, but I don't. Catholics are mean when it comes to music that they don't like.

There are many Catholics who seem to believe that Praise and Worship music is never appropriate for Mass, not just because of the words, but because the music itself is not "good enough". I disagree, but I prefer to stay alive and not be eaten alive by my fellow Catholics!

In my heart I write P and W songs that glorify Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and the Blessed Mother of God and all the saints. But that's where those songs will stay--in my heart, where only God can hear them.

I am going to attempt to write a short musical pageant about the life of St. Anthony of Padua for one of my parishes' centennial celebration, but it will be for CHILDREN, not grownups. And I will only write it if God helps me. I can't write songs unless God gives me the ability. If He chooses not to give me the ability, then I won't write it.
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Old Dec 8, '08, 5:32 am
kurtmasur kurtmasur is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

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Originally Posted by Cat View Post
There are many Catholics who seem to believe that Praise and Worship music is never appropriate for Mass, not just because of the words, but because the music itself is not "good enough". I disagree, but I prefer to stay alive and not be eaten alive by my fellow Catholics!
The thing is that "praise and worship" is already included as part of Catholic liturgy. If not in the Mass, it is in the Liturgy of the Hours, which is almost entirely composed of scripture (ie. inspired by the Holy Spirit), with the bulk coming from the Psalms.

More than just merely recited, it should ideally be sung, or chanted, as a sacrifice of praise, worship, thankgiving to God. I personally take the time to chant lauds in vespers each day in Latin... it's always very beautiful and a moving experience. And did I already mention that the text is almost entirely straight from Scripture?
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Old Dec 8, '08, 5:55 am
cirruslogic cirruslogic is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

But people these days are drawn to Don Moen and Hill Songs music, perhaps because of the melody and rhythm. And the words are neutral to all Christians. Nothing wrong with this. But I think we should have similar kinds of music that gives glory to the True Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, to the Holy Trinity, elements unique to the Catholic Faith, but which you will never find in any Don Moem Hillsongs music, I think.
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Old Dec 8, '08, 8:41 am
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

This is a somewhat hot-button issue, especially in these threads.

Rather than get into the subject of feelings, it is better to present what the Holy Father has written on the subject, both as Cardinal Ratzinger and as Pope and what the Church has also said.

In Spirit of the Liturgy, written before he became Pope, the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that:

Quote:
On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. "Rock", on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit's sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.
Now, the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Holy Euchairst took this point further when they noted that:

Quote:
In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.
In response to the concerns that the Synod Fathers raised regarding liturgical music, the Holy Father had this to say:

Quote:
Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything -- texts, music, execution -- ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129).
The issue of appropriate sacred music came up as late as 2003 during the reign of Pope John Paul II. He wrote a letter, the Chirograph on Sacred Music, to comemorate the letter that Pope St. Pius X had written on the same subject. In his 2003 letter, Pope John Paul wrote that:

Quote:
4. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, "sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action"[11]. For this very reason, "not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold", my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that "if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious"[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category "sacred music" has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X's reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able "to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church's faith"[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

5. Another principle, affirmed by St Pius X in the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini and which is closely connected with the previous one, is that of sound form. There can be no music composed for the celebration of sacred rites which is not first of all "true art" or which does not have that efficacy "which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her Liturgy the art of musical sounds"[15].

Yet this quality alone does not suffice. Indeed, liturgical music must meet the specific prerequisites of the Liturgy: full adherence to the text it presents, synchronization with the time and moment in the Liturgy for which it is intended, appropriately reflecting the gestures proposed by the rite. The various moments in the Liturgy require a musical expression of their own. From time to time this must fittingly bring out the nature proper to a specific rite, now proclaiming God's marvels, now expressing praise, supplication or even sorrow for the experience of human suffering which, however, faith opens to the prospect of Christian hope.
Composers need to keep these principles in mind when writing new hymns for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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Old Dec 8, '08, 9:35 am
Cat Cat is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

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Originally Posted by benedictgal View Post
This is a somewhat hot-button issue, especially in these threads.

Rather than get into the subject of feelings, it is better to present what the Holy Father has written on the subject, both as Cardinal Ratzinger and as Pope and what the Church has also said.

In Spirit of the Liturgy, written before he became Pope, the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that:



Now, the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Holy Euchairst took this point further when they noted that:



In response to the concerns that the Synod Fathers raised regarding liturgical music, the Holy Father had this to say:



The issue of appropriate sacred music came up as late as 2003 during the reign of Pope John Paul II. He wrote a letter, the Chirograph on Sacred Music, to comemorate the letter that Pope St. Pius X had written on the same subject. In his 2003 letter, Pope John Paul wrote that:



Composers need to keep these principles in mind when writing new hymns for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.


And that's why I don't compose Catholic songs. My interpretation of all of those passages of Pope writings is very different than yours, benedictgal, and of course, you are right and I am wrong. I won't touch it with a twenty foot pen. And I think a lot of other composer probably feel the same way I do. Why step into a mine field?
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Old Dec 8, '08, 4:56 pm
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Sarabande Sarabande is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

Although some people may argue about it being "good enough", it's really not about it being "good enough" - whether or not that's true. It's more about the music being refined enough to separate itself from the secular and stand alone as true sacred music. This is the same for all genres and styles of music, whether that be classical, jazz, blues, rock, pop, etc.

I enjoy religious music in various styles, and although I get spiritual enjoyment from it and feel inspired and enlightened, it does not mean that music should be within the mass setting. It might be religious in nature, but it is not sacred. Some styles can be refined enough to be acceptable for mass, although it may not be the ultimate. Other styles have yet to achieve that without totally transforming it. It does not necessarily mean that the sacred music is better than what is written as religious music, although it sometimes does mean that. I like chant - heck I actually love some of the chant out of my book, which you rarely ever hear anymore. It is perfect sacred music and it is something I truly believe without having the Church declaring it, mainly because it truly does stand on its own and has been used as sacred, spiritual music even long before Christianity came into being.

At the same time, although I do believe it is perfect, I will sometimes receive more spiritual satisfaction from a sacred polyphonic piece or a religious piece, either just with voices or with an instrument(s) and many of those works are "better"-composed, technically-speaking.

With Praise and Worship (music in general), people feel so strongly for or against because it does either give them total spiritual satisfaction or absolutely none at all. For me, it literally makes me ill, but I will not negate the fact that for some it gives them enjoyment. I do not personally know anyone where I am who does, with the exception of my born-again Christian family members, but reading these threads, I do see that there are Catholics out there who do.

Over the last couple of years, I've had to place my feelings aside for many religious compositions - some that are so exquisite and spiritually beautiful, but are truly not appropriate for mass mainly because it cannot be "performed" in a manner to which it would be appropriate to mass, without hindering and hurting the integrity of the piece. They are wonderful for religious concerts, but not for an actual mass. I believe the same needs to be done for those who are placing too much of their feelings with Praise and Worship or other styles of music that have religious text, etc. Putting the feelings aside and looking at the music to determine whether or not it can been refined enough to be appropriately "performed" during mass is key. If you can get it to "sound" less like an opera, rock/pop concert, symphony, musical, etc. and more close to sacred (no that doesn't mean it has to sound like a chant or piece by Tallis), the closer it will be to sacred perfection for mass.
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Old Dec 8, '08, 5:24 pm
kurtmasur kurtmasur is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

I agree very much with Sarabande's perspective on chant.

Here's a story I'd like to share: I have a friend who is atheist and not only anti-Catholic but also anti-religion in general. One day she was browsing my iPod and she noticed that I had a section labeled "Catholic music". She made fun of me thinking they were probably some "gospel" type of music. Out of curiosity she played a few tracks and found out that those music files consisted of chant music---much to her surprise, and delight. I think that says a lot about chant music, when even atheists are drawn to it.
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Old Dec 8, '08, 5:58 pm
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

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Here's a story I'd like to share: I have a friend who is atheist and not only anti-Catholic but also anti-religion in general. One day she was browsing my iPod and she noticed that I had a section labeled "Catholic music". She made fun of me thinking they were probably some "gospel" type of music. Out of curiosity she played a few tracks and found out that those music files consisted of chant music---much to her surprise, and delight. I think that says a lot about chant music, when even atheists are drawn to it.
That's funny - I experienced something similar where some of our atheist/agnostic friends and family were so surprised and delighted pretty much the same way when they heard the chants at our nuptial mass. They were expecting what they called, "hoaky", "Catholic" music.

BTW - You don't happen to be a Kurt Masur fan are you? He's a wonderful conductor.
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Old Dec 8, '08, 8:34 pm
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

What would help composers is to carefully study the documents of the Church, including Musicam Sacram and even the Chirograph that Pope John Paul II wrote to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the letter that Pope St. Pius X wrote.

To give you some history behind the situation, Pope St. Pius X wrote his letter because sacred music had become corrupted, if you will, by the music of the time, opera. He believed that it needed purging and purification.

Pope John Paul II, in his letter, notes that the situation has repeated itself:

Quote:
3. On various occasions I too have recalled the precious role and great importance of music and song for a more active and intense participation in liturgical celebrations[9]. I have also stressed the need to "purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated"[10], to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions.
In the letter, which I had quoted in a previous post, the late Supreme Pontiff makes some pivotal observations that composers might want to take to heart:

Quote:
6. The music and song requested by the liturgical reform - it is right to stress this point - must comply with the legitimate demands of adaptation and inculturation. It is clear, however, that any innovation in this sensitive matter must respect specific criteria such as the search for musical expressions which respond to the necessary involvement of the entire assembly in the celebration and which, at the same time, avoid any concessions to frivolity or superficiality. Likewise, on the whole, those elitist forms of "inculturation" which introduce into the Liturgy ancient or contemporary compositions of possible artistic value, but that indulge in a language that is incomprehensible to the majority, should be avoided.

In this regard St Pius X pointed out - using the term universal - a further prerequisite of music destined for worship: "...while every nation", he noted, "is permitted to admit into its ecclesiastical compositions those special forms which may be said to constitute its native music, still these forms must be subordinate in such a manner to the general character of sacred music, that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good on hearing them"[16]. In other words, the sacred context of the celebration must never become a laboratory for experimentation or permit forms of composition and performance to be introduced without careful review.

7. Among the musical expressions that correspond best with the qualities demanded by the notion of sacred music, especially liturgical music, Gregorian chant has a special place. The Second Vatican Council recognized that "being specially suited to the Roman Liturgy"[17] it should be given, other things being equal, pride of place in liturgical services sung in Latin[18]. St Pius X pointed out that the Church had "inherited it from the Fathers of the Church", that she has "jealously guarded [it] for centuries in her liturgical codices" and still "proposes it to the faithful" as her own, considering it "the supreme model of sacred music"[19]. Thus, Gregorian chant continues also today to be an element of unity in the Roman Liturgy.

Like St Pius X, the Second Vatican Council also recognized that "other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations"[20]. It is therefore necessary to pay special attention to the new musical expressions to ascertain whether they too can express the inexhaustible riches of the Mystery proposed in the Liturgy and thereby encourage the active participation of the faithful in celebrations[21].
Inasmuch as he does open the door to other forms of music, the Holy Father makes it very clear that these songs must conform to the liturgical demands of the Church.

Quote:
12. With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the "general rule" that St Pius X formulated in these words: "The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple"[33]. It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy[34]. In this perspective, in my Letter to Artists I wrote: "How many sacred works have been composed through the centuries by people deeply imbued with the sense of mystery! The faith of countless believers has been nourished by melodies flowing from the hearts of other believers, either introduced into the Liturgy or used as an aid to dignified worship. In song, faith is experienced as vibrant joy, love and confident expectation of the saving intervention of God"[35].

Renewed and deeper thought about the principles that must be the basis of the formation and dissemination of a high-quality repertoire is therefore required. Only in this way will musical expression be granted to serve appropriately its ultimate aim, which is "the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful"[36].
This should be the rule of thumb for composers to follow, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there are some publishing houses who foster songs that promote a more horizontal view of the liturgy, extolling the community, rather than focusing on the vertical dimension of the Mass and the worship of the Divine Majesty of God. I would dare say that very few, if any, of these modern compositions contain the word "sacrifice" or anything remotely similar.
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Old Dec 9, '08, 4:09 am
Cat Cat is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

Opinions opinions opinions. There are a lot of opinions flying around from the various Popes, but no specifics.

"Horizontal hymns" are not as good as "vertical hymns." I did not see that in any of the quotes posted. Where are some of YOU seeing it? It's personal interpretation of the Popes' writings, an interpretation that matches personal preference.

If I had read these documents WITHOUT reading some of the posts here first, I would have had an entirely different interpretation. As a matter of fact, that's what happened--I read them two summers ago while I was laid up after surgery, and I did NOT glean the same narrow approach toward composition and liturgy that many of you present as "fact." I gathered that the Catholic Church is open to many different styles of music and encourages musicians to develop the music of their culture. To me, that means AMERICAN music--call it banal if you wish, call it trite, call it "horizontal". But from what I see in those quotes and the rest of the documents, it's OK to use in the Mass.

Explain exactly what "profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae" means? La-di-dah, IMO. Basically it seems to me that what this statement is saying is that most people are too ignorant to write Catholic music. Right? And you wonder why people are falling away from the Church.

Although some Catholics espouse an "intellectual" approach towards Catholicism, most people are not into high-fallutin music. I think those who promote such "high" music and exclude "low" music need to come out of their ivory palaces and meet real people who really truly love songs like "On Eagles Wings, " and really truly, dislike ancient music.

I know, I know, we aren't SUPPOSED to like the music as long as God likes it. Like I said, no wonder no one comes to Mass. Did God really mean for the Mass to be unappealing to human beings? I don't think so.

The important thing is balance. I attended a Mass--a CHILDREN'S MASS (school) yesterday (I played piano) that nailed it. The Rosary was prayed immediately before Mass. The kids were absolutely quiet as they entered the church, and during the quiet parts of teh Mass. We did "Immaculate Mary" (traditional), "We Come to Your Feast" (contemporary), "Take and Eat" (contemporary), and "I Sing A Maid" (contemporary). Mass parts were from Mass of Remembrance (contemporary/traditional). The priest was traditional in his "style", and used the more traditional Eucharistic prayer, chanted his prayers, and gave a very meaty homily linking the Sacrament of Reconciliation with the Feast Day. There was guitar and piano, and the guitar was strummed during hymns and plucked during instrumentals. Everything was quite beautiful. Perfect.
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Old Dec 9, '08, 6:08 am
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

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Explain exactly what "profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae" means? La-di-dah, IMO. Basically it seems to me that what this statement is saying is that most people are too ignorant to write Catholic music. Right? And you wonder why people are falling away from the Church.
But this is coming from our Holy Father - a person who, I believe, we are to follow before our local bishops. As you say, opinions are opinions, but if it's coming from one of our Holy Father, I believe his opinion holds much more ground than any of us.

You think this statement is saying that most people are too ignorant to write sacred music. To me, that doesn't mean so at all. We wouldn't want to go to a doctor who wasn't "profoundly steeped" in his medical training or a theologian who wasn't "profoundly steeped" in Catholic training and study or the "sensus Ecclesiae". "Sensus Ecclesiae" just means the "Sense of the Church". If that is taken to think that our Holy Father is saying most of us are too stupid or ignorant to compose sacred music, that's putting a lot of words into his mouth.

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Although some Catholics espouse an "intellectual" approach towards Catholicism, most people are not into high-fallutin music.
Now, I wouldn't call it "high-fallutin" - that's a sure way to put it down to people who are not exposed to it. My grandparents used to think this music was "high-fallutin". It wasn't until they had a granddaughter who started playing piano and classical voice did they see that it was just pure music like any kind of music they listened to - not music for the intellectual elite. I am certainly not of the intellectual elite. I come from blue-collar stock whose parents worked their way up in life - like most Americans. Difference was, my parents - who were already on the outs of society because they were an interracial couple (Filipina and Caucasion) - never put down things, taught us that just because we don't understand something doesn't mean that it's strange, elitist or "high-fallutin".

Now I know that there are people who do espouse that and it's sad. I know this even from teaching children. The youngest children were always the most open-minded about music. The older ones, already had preconceived notions either learned from their families or their peers. The job as teacher was to break that revolving cycle and do things to show that it is just normal music.

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I think those who promote such "high" music and exclude "low" music need to come out of their ivory palaces and meet real people who really truly love songs like "On Eagles Wings, " and really truly, dislike ancient music.
Nobody is saying that sacred music has to be ancient music. And chant is not piled into that category. It is and always has been in a category unto itself.

I'm not sure if you read my previous post, but this has nothing to do with "good enough". I even said that some of the most beautiful "sacred" or "religious" music that I love and probably would be relegated to "High" music really should only be reserved for religious concerts. And of the sacred music from various centuries that I love and is appropriate for mass, I prefer some of it to some of the chant. Chant has been used in high and low masses. So this has nothing to do between high and low music. Both High and Low sacred music is acceptable at mass. What needs to be observed in the music is if the composition itself, whether or not it is composed by the most genius composer, is appropriately written for during the mass and follows the tenants laid out by the Church and further bolstered by our Popes through history.

Side note - I'm a normal person just like most of us on here and don't live in an ivory palace and do know people who like "On Eagles Wings". They are usually people my parents' age (50s/60s) and is usually used for funerals of people around that age. At the same time, I have experienced time and time again in all various gigs - sacred and secular - that most of the people who claim they don't like classical or ancient music, have never really listened or knew a person who did this music. When they are an audience to my performance at a concert or private event or are at a church for a wedding or a sacred concert, etc. many times, I received the same feedback that they originally never thought they would like this music, but were basically proven wrong after they heard me sing. Basically, we need to help people expand their horizons whether with music or anything else.

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I know, I know, we aren't SUPPOSED to like the music as long as God likes it.
Wow, that is not the case at all.

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Originally Posted by Cat View Post
Like I said, no wonder no one comes to Mass. Did God really mean for the Mass to be unappealing to human beings? I don't think so.
I can say the same for so many of my generation who think music like "On Eagle's Wings" is laughable and hoaky and had it forced down our throats growing up in the 80s and 90s, being told that this is the only music of the Church and the other "stuff" is "meaningless" and "old" now. Yeah, great teachers. They deserve an award for opening our minds to sacred music of our Church. If we are basing mass on just the music, then there is something wrong.

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The important thing is balance. I attended a Mass--a CHILDREN'S MASS (school) yesterday (I played piano) that nailed it. ..Everything was quite beautiful. Perfect.
I'm sure that was very nice and that they had their best musicians there. Most churches will at least have two traditional hymns and two contemporary hymns. There is nothing wrong with that as long as the music is appropriate. It's nice that the priest was employing chant to expose it to the children.
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Old Dec 9, '08, 6:50 am
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

It is certainly advisable that composers read the documents of the Church and the writings of the Popes so as to get a firm handle on sacred music. It is also very important that they understand the teachings of the Church, since they are going to communicate these through song.

The big problem is that music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass needs to be different than what the Protestant ecclesial communities use for their services. What the Church does and what they do are two vastly different things.

Regarding horizontalism, this is a term that even the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has been using as well as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. When the music and actions extol what the community or the individual is doing and make it grand and wonderful ("Lord, I Lift Your Name on High" or "We are the Body of Christ" or "O Love of God" that calls us to build the community) as opposed to songs like "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence", "All Glory, Laud and Honor" and "Shepherd of Souls" which direct the hymn towards God, thus taking on a vertical approach, then, we have missed the boat entirely.

Unfortunately, based on what I have seen from the current crop that has come out of OCP, specially their Spirit and Song and Unidos en Christo books, as though for the composers, the documents and liturgical teachings of the Church are non-existent.
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Old Dec 9, '08, 7:51 am
agapewolf agapewolf is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

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Originally Posted by benedictgal View Post


Regarding horizontalism, this is a term that even the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has been using as well as the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. When the music and actions extol what the community or the individual is doing and make it grand and wonderful ("Lord, I Lift Your Name on High" or "We are the Body of Christ" or "O Love of God" that calls us to build the community) as opposed to songs like "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence", "All Glory, Laud and Honor" and "Shepherd of Souls" which direct the hymn towards God, thus taking on a vertical approach, then, we have missed the boat entirely.

And again, as I have had to point out to you in so many threads before, it has NOT missed the boat entirely, as they are modeled after the prayer of the psalms.

Maybe it would do well for you to go read them. The whole book of psalms is "horizontal".

Ps 121 I lift up my eyes toward the mountains; whence shall help come to me?

Psalms 122 I rejoiced because they said to me, we will go up to the house of the Lord"

Ps 123 To you I lift up my eyes who are enthroned in heaven


and btw, very few songs from OCP are actually in the p/w genre.

Ps 130 out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord; Hear my voice

Ps 89 (used on Christmas vigil) Forever I will sing the goodness of the Lord
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Old Dec 9, '08, 8:05 am
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: Praise and Worship Music and Hymns

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Originally Posted by agapewolf View Post
And again, as I have had to point out to you in so many threads before, it has NOT missed the boat entirely, as they are modeled after the prayer of the psalms.

Maybe it would do well for you to go read them. The whole book of psalms is "horizontal".

Ps 121 I lift up my eyes toward the mountains; whence shall help come to me?

Psalms 122 I rejoiced because they said to me, we will go up to the house of the Lord"

Ps 123 To you I lift up my eyes who are enthroned in heaven


and btw, very few songs from OCP are actually in the p/w genre.

Ps 130 out of the depths I cry to you, O Lord; Hear my voice

Ps 89 (used on Christmas vigil) Forever I will sing the goodness of the Lord

But, a lot of these, especially the Bob Hurd and Fr. Ricky Manolo, CSP, compositions are horizontal in nature. They stress the community, the I and the We as opposed to the "Thou" of God. Furthermore, the settings are not consistent with what should be used. I would challenge you to do a side-by-side of Ven al Banquete with the English translation of Pangia Lingua. The differences are about as wide as night from day.

That is why I maintain my stance that composers should be very familiar with the official documents of the Holy See and the writings of the Popes, including Pope St. Pius X who had his own huge share of musical difficulties in his time.
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