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  #1  
Old Jan 1, '09, 5:24 am
nordskoven nordskoven is offline
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Default VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

"A lay movement called Vox Populi (“Voice of the People”) gathers signed petitions to send to the Pope, seeking to have him officially declare that Mary is Co‑Redemptrix. As of the year 2000, over six million signatures had been sent to him, representing 138 countries and all seven continents. This doctrine is supported by over 40 cardinals and 600 bishops worldwide."

VOX POPULI is featured in this Mary Ann Collins rant against the Church and is also prominent in the Wikipedia listing on Mariology. Pop Theology strikes again. Calling all theologians: revise this travesty. VOX POPULI has distinguished itself by publishing the condemned works of a Dutch woman whose revelations include a fist-shaking "Mary" demanding that the people force the Vatican to adopt her fifth and "Final Dogma" which is summarized in her title,

"The Lady of All Nations Who Once Was Mary: CoRedemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate."

VOX POPULI means mob rule. This is the group founded by Franciscan University professor Mark Miravalle, whose publishing arm, Queenship Publishing, propagates the condemned work of Dutch pseudo-seer Ida Peerdeman. It is Peerdeman who proclaimed excommunicated Canadian pseudo-seer Marie Paul Giguere to be the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary. Truth is unitive. This is from the Father of Lies and Murder. Miravalle is also now promoting another Irish "seer" named Anne. It's all grist for the mill.

When Cardinal Ratzinger (now Benedict XVI) was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith he soundly rejected the "Final Dogma" which should have been the last word. It was declared weak, confusing and scandalous to non-believers.

Nobody, not even "Mary" can limit the teaching authority of the Church in telling her there is a "Final Dogma" your work is over go home.

"Mary" would never rule the Church via mob-ocracy; she is subject to the Church as well, seen in her request at Fatima that the bishops consecrate Russia to her care and keeping. She will not act without permission to convert Russia without episcopal approval to do so.

Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate may be apt titles but lousy dogma. All souls are called to cooperate in the salvific work, all are called to be mediators and advocates.

Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate are not specific to Mary, and not reflexive of the nature of Jesus Christ. All Marian dogma more clearly delineates the nature of Jesus Christ. In my understanding, "Mother of God" shows Christ is all God and all Man. "Perpetual Virgin" shows Christ was born to fulfill God's chosen miracle, virginity being an absolute declared by God in Isaiah 7:14. The Immaculate Conception shows Christ was born free from the Sin of Adam. The Assumption shows Christ obeying the solemn dictum to honor mother and father, Christ as subject to the will of the Father, equal but positionally obedient.

Pius XII was the first to condemn Ida Peerdeman's writings. The frenzy continues unabated because Miravalle is able to cut-and-paste encyclicals interlaced with "Catholicky" writing extolling the praises of Mary while showing guilt by association--Ida speaks of Mary, saints speak of Mary, the Church speaks of Mary, therefore Miravelle's "Final Dogma" must be right, right? Wrong.

The Blessed Virgin was given a unique charism in presenting Christ for His circumcision. Through her intercession, let us pray:

Blessed Virgin Mary, pierced with a sword of sorrow "that the thoughts of all may be revealed" expose all thoughts, cleansing them in the fire of love that is your Son Jesus Christ's Sacred Heart. AMEN

Thank you for this opportunity to clear the air. May the Lord preserve us in loving obedience. BLESSINGS!
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  #2  
Old Jan 1, '09, 5:56 am
chevalier's Avatar
chevalier chevalier is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

The insane seer with reincarnation ideas is one thing, but some of your logic is worrying. For example, do you really think that Mary needs to go to an Earthly bishop for permission if She wants to act? In my view, Mary was giving the bishops the task to go and consecrate Russia, not the other way round. Also, from one of your following paragraphs it sounds like Mary is not special compared to any other Christian soul. That is not true. Her role in the salvation of all men was unique and She was chosen.
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  #3  
Old Jan 1, '09, 6:04 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

I have written some articles criticizing some theological errors in the work of Vox Populi:

Contra Vox Populi: General Errors
http://www.catholicplanet.com/CMA/contra-vox-populi.htm

Not Fifth, Not Final, Not Yet A Dogma
http://www.catholicplanet.com/CMA/no...-not-final.htm

13 Reasons To Delay The Definition of A Dogma
http://www.catholicplanet.com/CMA/delay-dogma.htm

I'm also critical of the fact that Dr. Mark Miravalle appointed himself as the president of that organization, there is no board or process for a successor, and the organization appears to be nothing more than Miravalle and a few of his supporters. Yet it is called 'voice of the people'.

And yes, Vox Populi, and the related bi-monthly Marian e-zine, Mother of all peoples,
http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/
tend to support any claimed private revelation which contains ideas similar to their own views, without an honest evaluation as to whether or not these claimed private revelations are worthy of credance.
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  #4  
Old Jan 1, '09, 6:54 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

**"The Lady of All Nations Who Once Was Mary: CoRedemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate."**

And just when did the Most Holy Theotokos STOP being Mary?
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  #5  
Old Jan 1, '09, 8:42 am
eelpis eelpis is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

The bishop of Amsterdam has allowed devotion to Our Lady of all nations and Ida Peerdemann is not condemned.
Interestingly it's the image of Our Lady of all nations that sweated and before it the Japanese nun had her approved visions in Akita, Japan.

That Mary is Coredemptrix and Mediatrix of all graces is already common Church teaching and it could be defined.
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  #6  
Old Jan 1, '09, 9:02 am
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eelpis View Post
The bishop of Amsterdam has allowed devotion to Our Lady of all nations and Ida Peerdemann is not condemned.
Interestingly it's the image of Our Lady of all nations that sweated and before it the Japanese nun had her approved visions in Akita, Japan.

That Mary is Coredemptrix and Mediatrix of all graces is already common Church teaching and it could be defined.
The question is, why should it be defined? What Christological dispute would such a definition resolve?
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  #7  
Old Jan 1, '09, 9:10 am
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevalier View Post
The insane seer with reincarnation ideas is one thing, but some of your logic is worrying. For example, do you really think that Mary needs to go to an Earthly bishop for permission if She wants to act? In my view, Mary was giving the bishops the task to go and consecrate Russia, not the other way round. Also, from one of your following paragraphs it sounds like Mary is not special compared to any other Christian soul. That is not true. Her role in the salvation of all men was unique and She was chosen.
What I find worrying is the use of a capital S in She.

I heard of an apparition in which Mary requested something, but the visionary asked the bishop, which he refused. When the next vision came, Mary told the seer that she did the right thing by obeying her bishop. I don't remember the details though.

While Mary's soul is immaculate and special, she is not a priest, and does not carry the mark of the priesthood. The faithful are obliged to obey their bishops first.

If "Mary" commands a visionary to circumvent or disobey the bishop, I can be certain that this vision is not the genuine article. In the case of Juan Diego, she gave him a sign to give the bishop, but she never told Juan to disobey him.
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  #8  
Old Jan 1, '09, 10:06 am
eelpis eelpis is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by porthos11 View Post
What I find worrying is the use of a capital S in She.

I heard of an apparition in which Mary requested something, but the visionary asked the bishop, which he refused. When the next vision came, Mary told the seer that she did the right thing by obeying her bishop. I don't remember the details though.

While Mary's soul is immaculate and special, she is not a priest, and does not carry the mark of the priesthood. The faithful are obliged to obey their bishops first.

If "Mary" commands a visionary to circumvent or disobey the bishop, I can be certain that this vision is not the genuine article. In the case of Juan Diego, she gave him a sign to give the bishop, but she never told Juan to disobey him.
Mary is the one most intimately associated to the sacrifice of her son. All that Jesus suffered in his body Mary suffered in her soul for our salvation. She is not a priest but through her mediation she mediates even the grace of the priesthood. All graces pass through her hands. She gave birth to the Victim who takes away the sins of the world and she consented to his sacrifice. See Lumen Gentium on Mary.
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  #9  
Old Jan 1, '09, 10:10 am
eelpis eelpis is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by porthos11 View Post
The question is, why should it be defined? What Christological dispute would such a definition resolve?
It should be defined for the greater glory of God and his most holy mother.
It's fitting to give glory to God.
All the world should know about the glories of the mother of God.

Of Mary there is never enough.

De Maria nunquam satis.
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  #10  
Old Jan 1, '09, 2:14 pm
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eelpis View Post
Mary is the one most intimately associated to the sacrifice of her son. All that Jesus suffered in his body Mary suffered in her soul for our salvation. She is not a priest but through her mediation she mediates even the grace of the priesthood. All graces pass through her hands. She gave birth to the Victim who takes away the sins of the world and she consented to his sacrifice. See Lumen Gentium on Mary.
That last sentence is the proper way of understanding Mary as Mediatrix, since she cooperated and brought forth Grace himself.

The mediating of the graces of the sacraments I have a bigger problem with, since Catholic teaching clearly states that the sacraments work ex opere operato, and that the priest works in the person of Christ, that is, Christ himself is confecting the Sacrament. I can't see how Mary "dispensing" or "distributing" sacramental grace is compatible with sacramental theology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eelpis View Post
It should be defined for the greater glory of God and his most holy mother.
It's fitting to give glory to God.
All the world should know about the glories of the mother of God.

Of Mary there is never enough.

De Maria nunquam satis.
No. Dogmas are not defined to give glory to God. They are defined to confirm the faithful in truth. All the defined Marian dogmas, are definitions of truths about Christ, just like our Lady always pointed to her Son. The definition of Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix defines no currently disputed truths about Christ.

So no, merely defining dogmas for Mary's sake is not what our Lady would want.
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  #11  
Old Jan 1, '09, 2:34 pm
Cactus Cactus is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
**"The Lady of All Nations Who Once Was Mary: CoRedemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate."**

And just when did the Most Holy Theotokos STOP being Mary?
That phrase has always bothered me. I have never heard a clear explanation of it.
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  #12  
Old Jan 1, '09, 4:15 pm
eelpis eelpis is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by porthos11 View Post
That last sentence is the proper way of understanding Mary as Mediatrix, since she cooperated and brought forth Grace himself.

The mediating of the graces of the sacraments I have a bigger problem with, since Catholic teaching clearly states that the sacraments work ex opere operato, and that the priest works in the person of Christ, that is, Christ himself is confecting the Sacrament. I can't see how Mary "dispensing" or "distributing" sacramental grace is compatible with sacramental theology.



No. Dogmas are not defined to give glory to God. They are defined to confirm the faithful in truth. All the defined Marian dogmas, are definitions of truths about Christ, just like our Lady always pointed to her Son. The definition of Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix defines no currently disputed truths about Christ.

So no, merely defining dogmas for Mary's sake is not what our Lady would want.
Mary is the Mother of the Church, the mother of the whole Christ.

Absolutely no grace comes to us without passing her, all the modern popes teach that, there is no one who questions it except Protestants.

Regarding sacramental graces.

1. Whatever grace is dispensed through the sacrament has been earned by both Christ and Mary.
2. It's application has been obtained through Mary's power of intercession.

Mary also leads us to frequent the sacraments and she obtains for us the disposition to profit from them.

"It was she who by her mighty prayers, obtained that the Spirit of the Divine redeemer, already given on the cross, should be bestowed on the new-born Church on the day of Pentecost, in the company of miraculous gifts."



Dogmas are defined also for the greater glory of God.

I quote from Ineffabilis Deus.
"Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
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  #13  
Old Jan 1, '09, 5:09 pm
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
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Default Re: VOX POPULI following condemned seer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eelpis View Post
Mary is the Mother of the Church, the mother of the whole Christ.

Absolutely no grace comes to us without passing her, all the modern popes teach that, there is no one who questions it except Protestants.

Regarding sacramental graces.

1. Whatever grace is dispensed through the sacrament has been earned by both Christ and Mary.
2. It's application has been obtained through Mary's power of intercession.

Mary also leads us to frequent the sacraments and she obtains for us the disposition to profit from them.

"It was she who by her mighty prayers, obtained that the Spirit of the Divine redeemer, already given on the cross, should be bestowed on the new-born Church on the day of Pentecost, in the company of miraculous gifts."
Again, this is pretty consistent and is the proper understanding of the term Mediatrix, but very clearly, it states her intercessory role par excellence, and not some kind of disbursement clerk role some saints' writings seem to make her out to be. The terms "passing through" and "neck" don't sit well with me as far as the Sacraments are concerned.

Quote:
Dogmas are defined also for the greater glory of God.

I quote from Ineffabilis Deus.
"Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
All right, I concede this point, but still we have no good Christological reason for such a definition.
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  #14  
Old Jan 1, '09, 11:05 pm
nordskoven nordskoven is offline
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Default LUMEN GENTIUM on Marian devotion...no "vain credulity"

This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.
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  #15  
Old Jan 2, '09, 12:32 am
eelpis eelpis is offline
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Default Re: LUMEN GENTIUM on Marian devotion...no "vain credulity"

Quote:
Originally Posted by nordskoven View Post
This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.
That Mary is mediatrix of all graces and coredemptrix is common church teaching and no vain credulity, the rejection of those teachings are near to heresy. The Church when defining the teachings in the future will have to explain it clearly to the Protestants, but I have a hunch that the Church is moving beyond the sixties and the PCness toward the 'separated brethren'. Some of them say we give Mary divine worship, and that the church is the whore of Babylon. How do we counter that without engaging in apologetics? Do we allow the Protestants to define what the Catholic Church believes?
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