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  #46  
Old Jan 7, '09, 1:04 pm
kaws kaws is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by bookgirl32 View Post
Kaws,

Sorry you felt that way! You're really one of the first from our diocese that I've even heard mention it. I think that a lot of people probably wouldn't mind it. I don't have a strong stance on it one way or another, really. But I didn't like the diocese being blanketly characterized by one small thing (you didn't do that).

I do agree that the exclusiveness of it does help the boys to maybe discern a call. It's something special for them b/c they are boys, not something we can't do b/c we're not boys. I don't think that the diocese put forth the message that girls were in some way deficient. I guess a good question too, specific to this diocese, is did you attend the Catholic schools? I think this made a big difference in how many of us (girls) perceived this. I'm NOT saying that the public school kids were less Catholic or anything like that. But our entire days were centered around daily Mass and prayer and religion classes, and monthly confessions and benediction during Lent. I think that the kids in public school / CCD (again, nothing at all wrong with it), maybe wanted to be a little more involved than they were, and that could make alter boys seem like they had more involvement? Just a theory.
I will admit that I am sometimes frustrated at some aspects of how conservative our diocese is, but agree there are many good aspects to our diocese and I would hate to have it viewed and judged just on this one aspect. We have truly been blessed as a diocese with many fabulous priests and dedicated lay parishiners!

I have nothing against CCD or public schools. I did go to Catholic school for 10 years from 2nd grade through senior graduation. I agree there are much more opportunities for participation in Catholics schools.

I remember watching a video of a mass that had altar girls serving and a priest commenting about "taking the good along with the imperfect" in reference to girl servers.
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  #47  
Old Jan 7, '09, 5:08 pm
CradleCath CradleCath is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by bookgirl32 View Post
Sorry cholman, grew up in Lincoln, never had this feeling . . .
And if being an alter boy was the only way to "participate fully in the liturgy" then there are sure lots of people left out. This is really kind of silly logic. I'm not claiming Lincoln to be better or anything like that, just that the "alter girl" thing is definitely not something the people actually IN Lincoln even worry about. It's funny how often I see it mentioned on these boards, way more than I hear it here, that's for sure.
You go ahead & claim the Lincoln diocese is....if not "better", then more Catholic & more filled with faithful Catholics who are some of the happiest Catholics that I've met in a long time.

I have a good friend who lives in your diocese. We attended Catholic high school together (100 yrs. ago!!) & I visit her as often as I can. I've attended several Masses at St. Francis of Assisi......absolutely beautiful Masses....... & the Traditional orders of nuns coming out of your diocese is amazing. Your School Sisters of Christ the King teach at my parishes' school. You have every right to be proud & I hope that some of the posters here will seek your opinion & learn from you & your diocese. If I were a Bishop, I'd be camping out in Lincoln, Ne. to learn the reasons behind your diocese's success in so many areas.
http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/mauve/Religious_hp.htm
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  #48  
Old Jan 7, '09, 9:28 pm
CradleCath CradleCath is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by bookgirl32 View Post
Sorry cholman, grew up in Lincoln, never had this feeling . . .
And if being an alter boy was the only way to "participate fully in the liturgy" then there are sure lots of people left out. This is really kind of silly logic. I'm not claiming Lincoln to be better or anything like that, just that the "alter girl" thing is definitely not something the people actually IN Lincoln even worry about. It's funny how often I see it mentioned on these boards, way more than I hear it here, that's for sure.
This just wasn't a problem when I was raising my own children. True........my daughter could not serve at the altar, even after
Vat. II. The Church we attended then (during the 70's) was a rural parish & the elderly priest who had "retired" there after a stroke never brought the subject up. It wouldn't have been a problem, anyway. I would have just told our daughter that altar servers are male. (And our sons weren't allowed to be nuns, either.
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  #49  
Old Jan 8, '09, 11:31 am
osmond osmond is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by bookgirl32 View Post
I think I pretty much agree with you here. I think that there are rules set out by Rome and parishes either do or don't follow them. It's funny b/c here in Lincoln, the so-called "conservatives", we have parishes that are "liberal" in comparison to other parishes! As long as a church is not disobeying the Pope and it's individual Bishop that the Pope has granted authority to, the "styles" of Masses, etc. don't make it conservative or liberal. They're either in line with Rome or they're not. Maybe I'm simplifying it.
I very much agree. Some equate almost anything bad (by any measure) to being "liberal" and almost anything good (by any measure) to being "conservative: and that's not accurate. It's ignorant nonsense. Those that claim the reverse are equally wrong.

In my experience the more extreme one becomes (be it "liberal" or "conservative") the greater they dissent and the more they become like one another -- separated from God and His Church.
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  #50  
Old Jan 8, '09, 11:34 am
kaws kaws is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by osmond View Post
I very much agree. Some equate almost anything bad (by any measure) to being "liberal" and almost anything good (by any measure) to being "conservative: and that's not accurate. It's ignorant nonsense. Those that claim the reverse are equally wrong.

In my experience the more extreme one becomes (be it "liberal" or "conservative") the greater they dissent and the more they become like one another -- separated from God and His Church.
I agree!
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  #51  
Old Jan 8, '09, 11:42 am
osmond osmond is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by CradleCath View Post
...If I were a Bishop, I'd be camping out in Lincoln, Ne. to learn the reasons behind your diocese's success in so many areas.
Sometimes I think it's important to view things in the context of the real world. Lincoln NE is a very small diocese by most comparisons, about 79,000 Catholic faithful. The population is also fairly homogeneous and stable. Compare that to Los Angeles which has 4.6 million (and growing!) Catholic faithful, more than fifty (50) times as many as Lincoln.

I suspect that most everything you like about the diocese of Lincoln is being done in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles (or Chicago or New York or Brooklyn, etc.) and likely on a bigger scale. The difference is that the larger places have a great many other things going on as well (with the great majority being good things) so the voice/actions are a great deal more diverse. Also, their Archbishops don't appear on EWTN as much.
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  #52  
Old Jan 8, '09, 11:48 am
kaws kaws is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by osmond View Post
Sometimes I think it's important to view things in the context of the real world. Lincoln NE is a very small diocese by most comparisons, about 79,000 Catholic faithful. The population is also fairly homogeneous and stable. Compare that to Los Angeles which has 4.6 million (and growing!) Catholic faithful, more than fifty (50) times as many as Lincoln.

I suspect that most everything you like about the diocese of Lincoln is being done in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles (or Chicago or New York or Brooklyn, etc.) and likely on a bigger scale. The difference is that the larger places have a great many other things going on as well (with the great majority being good things) so the voice/actions are a great deal more diverse. Also, their Archbishops don't appear on EWTN as much.
This is probably true. There are almost certainly more conservative elements in larger dioceses. I wish there was more diversity here in Lincoln. There are many good aspects to our diocese though, along with those that frustrate me greatly! But even though our population is small I don't think of our diocese as insignificant .
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  #53  
Old Jan 8, '09, 1:00 pm
osmond osmond is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by kaws View Post
This is probably true. There are almost certainly more conservative elements in larger dioceses. I wish there was more diversity here in Lincoln. There are many good aspects to our diocese though, along with those that frustrate me greatly! But even though our population is small I don't think of our diocese as insignificant .
I agree with all you said. I just wanted to provide some scale. Each of the five pastoral regions that make-up Los Angeles are far, far larger than Lincoln. Most deaneries in the archdiocese are larger.

Those that somehow feel what works in Lincoln would work everywhere else don't seem to have a realistic picture of what is really going on. Sure they can take hit-and-run pot-shots, but they rarely seem to dig deep into a matter.
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  #54  
Old Jan 8, '09, 2:49 pm
bookgirl32 bookgirl32 is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by CradleCath View Post
You go ahead & claim the Lincoln diocese is....if not "better", then more Catholic & more filled with faithful Catholics who are some of the happiest Catholics that I've met in a long time.

I have a good friend who lives in your diocese. We attended Catholic high school together (100 yrs. ago!!) & I visit her as often as I can. I've attended several Masses at St. Francis of Assisi......absolutely beautiful Masses....... & the Traditional orders of nuns coming out of your diocese is amazing. Your School Sisters of Christ the King teach at my parishes' school. You have every right to be proud & I hope that some of the posters here will seek your opinion & learn from you & your diocese. If I were a Bishop, I'd be camping out in Lincoln, Ne. to learn the reasons behind your diocese's success in so many areas.
http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/mauve/Religious_hp.htm
Thanks for the compliments, although I obviously don't take any credit myself. I think that Lincoln is the way it is b/c we've had two consecutive bishops that have made a point of doing things the way they do, and being very personally involved.
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  #55  
Old Jan 8, '09, 3:07 pm
bookgirl32 bookgirl32 is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by osmond View Post
I agree with all you said. I just wanted to provide some scale. Each of the five pastoral regions that make-up Los Angeles are far, far larger than Lincoln. Most deaneries in the archdiocese are larger.

Those that somehow feel what works in Lincoln would work everywhere else don't seem to have a realistic picture of what is really going on. Sure they can take hit-and-run pot-shots, but they rarely seem to dig deep into a matter.
Oh, I'm not so sure about that. I think that Bruskewitz, and Flavin before him, made it a point to stick as close to Rome as possible, and that filtered down through the priests and the schools. There are two entire generations that don't remember anything being any other way than they are now. There isn't a lot of dissention and yet, per capita, the involvement is very large. You can't tell me that out of everyone who belongs to the Lincoln diocese there aren't people who disagree with the way things are done. They just know who is boss, I guess. Bruskewitz is a stickler for the rules, even the small ones, but he's also very very good at explaining why the rules are important and the basis for them. He's also good at making sure his parishioners feel valued, but not letting them become his reference point. The alter boy thing is just a good example of that. A Catholic diocese is not a democracy, the bishop is the boss, adn the bishop doesn't have to make the people happy, although a good bishop will make that a goal (and he does). That's not a commentary on whether or not I even agree with the altar server issue, it's just an example to show the situation for what it is. The people don't question that issue heavily, and that's because they know that they're "popular vote" isn't really going to move Bruskewitz one way or another. That's a good thing in my eyes.

I don't think that it has much to do with it being smaller, b/c bigger diocese could follow the same "path" as that and have just as much success. Yes our population is smaller, etc. and I'm not claiming that has nothing to do with it, it may make doing what he's doing easier is SOME ways. But it doesnt' change what he's chosen to do, how he's chosen to be a bishop, and why that works. Does that make sense?
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  #56  
Old Jan 8, '09, 7:27 pm
osmond osmond is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by bookgirl32 View Post
Thanks for the compliments, although I obviously don't take any credit myself. I think that Lincoln is the way it is b/c we've had two consecutive bishops that have made a point of doing things the way they do, and being very personally involved.
I think that's very true. I also think the size of the diocese and relatively homogeneous faithful also played a part. Some seem to think that the ordinary of Lincoln could come in and "fix" Los Angeles, New York, etc. and they couldn't be more wrong.

There is a reason why men like O'Malley of Boston and Dolan of Milwaukee are chosen to fill the big/difficult cathedras and not men like the Ordinary of Lincoln.
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  #57  
Old Jan 8, '09, 7:32 pm
Jennifer G. Jennifer G. is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

I wouldn't know how traditional our archdiocese is. If I just went by my parish, then I would say it's leaning traditional. On occasions, I do see nuns wearings habits (the Grey Nuns, and a few Carmelites with full habits - I think Port Tabbaco) at church or adoration. Although, the Baltimore Carmelites seem liberal (no habits).
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  #58  
Old Jan 8, '09, 7:46 pm
osmond osmond is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by bookgirl32 View Post
Oh, I'm not so sure about that. I think that Bruskewitz, and Flavin before him, made it a point to stick as close to Rome as possible, and that filtered down through the priests and the schools. There are two entire generations that don't remember anything being any other way than they are now. There isn't a lot of dissention and yet, per capita, the involvement is very large. You can't tell me that out of everyone who belongs to the Lincoln diocese there aren't people who disagree with the way things are done. They just know who is boss, I guess. Bruskewitz is a stickler for the rules, even the small ones, but he's also very very good at explaining why the rules are important and the basis for them. He's also good at making sure his parishioners feel valued, but not letting them become his reference point. The alter boy thing is just a good example of that. A Catholic diocese is not a democracy, the bishop is the boss, adn the bishop doesn't have to make the people happy, although a good bishop will make that a goal (and he does). That's not a commentary on whether or not I even agree with the altar server issue, it's just an example to show the situation for what it is. The people don't question that issue heavily, and that's because they know that they're "popular vote" isn't really going to move Bruskewitz one way or another. That's a good thing in my eyes.

I don't think that it has much to do with it being smaller, b/c bigger diocese could follow the same "path" as that and have just as much success. Yes our population is smaller, etc. and I'm not claiming that has nothing to do with it, it may make doing what he's doing easier is SOME ways. But it doesnt' change what he's chosen to do, how he's chosen to be a bishop, and why that works. Does that make sense?
The God-given grace and the practical skill-set necessary to be the Bishop of Lincoln differs greatly from that of the Archdiocese of say Boston or Los Angeles. While many things are the same, just as many are far different.

In recent history two of the most difficult situations in the Church in the USA included replacing the archbishops of Milwaukee and Boston. The men who were chosen are in my opinion among the best the Church has to offer in this country. Their faith in God, their intrinsic gifts from God, their formation and their experience have forged some very special men. These men could lead just about any archdiocese in the USA. I don't think that's true of the Ordinary of Lincoln.
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  #59  
Old Jan 8, '09, 10:37 pm
bookgirl32 bookgirl32 is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by osmond View Post
I think that's very true. I also think the size of the diocese and relatively homogeneous faithful also played a part. Some seem to think that the ordinary of Lincoln could come in and "fix" Los Angeles, New York, etc. and they couldn't be more wrong.
In what way are they so wrong? I'm not saying I think they're right, but what makes that thought so unbelievable to you?

Why, exactly, do you mean by homogeneous? Racially homogeneous? Lincoln does not have the diversity in numbers close to LA, but it's large Veitnamese and Hispanic population makes up quite a bit of the diocese.

Quote:
There is a reason why men like O'Malley of Boston and Dolan of Milwaukee are chosen to fill the big/difficult cathedras and not men like the Ordinary of Lincoln.
I think that the bishops appointed to their in particular diocese are where they are supposed to be. I don't, however, think that men like Bruskewitz wouldn't be up for the job, so to speak.
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  #60  
Old Jan 8, '09, 10:57 pm
bookgirl32 bookgirl32 is offline
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Default Re: Traditional/Liberal Dioceses in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by osmond View Post
The God-given grace and the practical skill-set necessary to be the Bishop of Lincoln differs greatly from that of the Archdiocese of say Boston or Los Angeles. While many things are the same, just as many are far different.

In recent history two of the most difficult situations in the Church in the USA included replacing the archbishops of Milwaukee and Boston. The men who were chosen are in my opinion among the best the Church has to offer in this country. Their faith in God, their intrinsic gifts from God, their formation and their experience have forged some very special men. These men could lead just about any archdiocese in the USA. I don't think that's true of the Ordinary of Lincoln.
I'm not quite sure why you're even arguing this. This isn't a competition. Bruskewitz, at this point, is not called to be an archbishop of an archdiocese. The archbishops of Milwaukee and Boston are. The argument being made in this thread (now anyway) is that strict adherance to the Vatican, Pope, Magesterium, etc., even in smaller matters of discipline, helps to produce a strong diocese. This can be applied regardless of the demographic of any diocese, arch or not. Of course other issues can hinder the growth of a diocese, that does not make a case against this particular fact. I'm just not quite sure why you're getting so defensive?
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